Not sure whether this is the right forum to post this, but I'll post it here instead of home poker since it seems like a more frequented forum.

Anyway, I have a question regarding possible cheating in a game I'm thinking of kinda playing a few times a month.

Little preface, I have very little live poker experience except a few 1/2$ I played a few years ago for fun with amateur friends from back in HS, college, and higher stakes tourneys (1k-5k) that I played a little more seriously but never made it my main thing. I mostly play online hu cash and sngs med-highstakes since a few years ago.

Living in eastern europe atm, and a few months ago heard these guys talk about poker in a live betting shop, and started a convo with this guy asking him what he plays and stuff. He said they sometimes gather around and play the equivalent of 5/5$(which is pretty high stakes if you compare it to the average salary). Anyway I said I'd give it a try.

First session it was 4 people + I, and they were playing for a while when I got there and it was some nl single draw variant. I won't go into details here, but I wasn't really following the dealing (we switched) but I got quad kings right off the bat (after an hour or so of playing) and lost to quad aces (knew something was up and just c/c'd). Overall didn't lose too much in that hand (like 300$?) and obv called them out and stopped playing after that, said I'd only play again if it was NL or PLO, with my deck, and a proper dealer. They obv denied and I just left.

Fast forward, I had another session NL session much later where the dealer was this guy that I was monitoring very closely and he seemed clumsy and clueless so I relaxed a bit. Won slightly under 2 buyins here recouping earlier losses. I brought my own deck here (in case someone had duplicates and was hiding cards).

Then a month or so after, we had another session, at a different venue and this time there was another dealer. They said he was working for this local gambling place (didn't check up on it but most likely true) since he seemed pretty adept. Didn't bing my own deck here, but here it seemed I kept getting slightly upped in most showdown pots. However, most of the time it was me doing the betting and them calling down except once or twice. I ended up losing like 2-3 buyins here. I was trying to make out if he was bottom dealing, or second card dealing, but he was pretty fast and I can't tell 100% but he did shuffle the deck on the felt a few times I asked, but I did not want to insist on this every time. However the biggest pot of the night I actually won by sucking out, it was my TT vs. AA vs. 76 with my putting up about 150 in pre (it was 5/5/10 straddle and I had about 500ish) and getting it in on a 76x board and sucking out w a running flush. If the first session had not happened I would have 100% just chalked this off as running bad and nothing special, but having that in mind I can't be sure.


This was about 3 months ago since I've played that session and I ran into the initial guy again and he asked if I wanted to play again, and I said yeah maybe, but let's make it plo, and he said he'll talk to some guys and we'll try this week.


So, I will say this. I don't care about this game, too much, or live cash games in general especially since it's pretty small amounts to what I play online (but would be considered hefty money to average people here). However, they are incredibly fishy, and it could be fun to mix in some live poker here and there and could potentially lead to getting into bigger games later on. However, I don't really like it that I have to be on my guard when it comes to the dealing and therefore not entirely comfortable.

I don't think if they are cheating they can be very subtle like in the third session, in the chance that it was staged, and most likely would do it like in the first (however I could be wrong). There were also different people in every one of the 3 sessions (except the guy I talk to who was present in every one), and they don't seem to want to play if it's less than 6-7 people anymore which makes me lean towards there not being dealer trickery anymore.. It also seems particularly hard to manipulate the deck with the burnt cards, and having a black card cover the bottom etc. but again I'm not too sure on the specifics of this.

All in all, I just wanted to see what people here thought. I'm going to play one more session (PLO) and then decide whether I'll play again or not. Here too it would seem incredibly hard to cheat, much more so than before with the keeping track of everything possible between people within seconds, i.e. being knowledgeable + photographic memory + being a mechanic (in which case wtf are you doing dealing here) but could be wrong again. What I'm mostly afraid of is a bottom deck "rounders" type cheating with the dealer colluding with another player at the table (since he doesn't play), or same method but with second card cheating (seems more likely).

And also, is there anything in particular I should look out for that can be easily spotted that could lead to possible cheating? And is asking to play with my own deck, and requesting a "felt shuffle" every time likely to eliminate any manipulation if it does go on (or likely to help), or should a good mechanic be able to overcome time?

Stick to online.

Never play in a game where you have doubts about its honesty.

so quad aces check raised you. How does that suggest they are cheating? you lost only 300 in the hand so I don't think they would have gone crazy setting up a deck for that small amount of a return. They would have probably waited until you were much deeper.

I'm not saying it is totally out of the question but you don't give any evidence except for the bad beats.

The bottom line is if you are not comfortable there, play somewhere else.

There were several other hints in that hand, and prior that I did not pay attention to, and reactions during and after the hand (i.e. fake surprise at the end and villain in question making getting startled when I just said call with chips behind, etc). It was 100% blatant cheating. I would bet everything I own on a line of -100000 if it was possible to know for certain.

Also, again, it is not a small amount for the country, and I could've potentially lost more in the hand or after had I continued playing.

Again some of these guys are degens and make 2$ bets or play 10c slots all day (at least one of them who played all 3 sessions, not the guy I talked to). It's surprising to even see them be able to afford playing.

Hire a pro dealer for a couple hours and bring him to the game

Hm, not sure where to find one and ask or if he would be allowed to sit in and not play. Might work to ask to bring my own dealer, and gauge reactions and see if they agree. Would have to look for a dealer though and not sure too sure how to go on about doing that tho. Maybe ask some people I know around here or something, or get someone semi competent?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that someone is, in fact, cheating in this game. Maybe not every game, but at least the first game with the insane cooler, where you noted the fake surprise and the odd reaction to your flat-call.

(Speaking of which, why did you only flat-call with quad kings? That is pretty odd.)

You got cheated at least once in this game, and apparently more than one of them were in on it. You should never have gone back. It's kinda crazy that you knew for sure that you got cheated at the first game, but you played with them some more later on.

Don't play in poker games run/dealt by people you don't trust.

I went to a home game ONE time and knew I was being cheated; same as you I got the big set-up cooler hand(although mine were cool-ers..plural) high card roll ups vs high card roll ups both hitting quads on fifth street vs wheel draw in stud8---talk about maxed out betting on every street! And this continued to happen throughout the night until it clicked that they just weren't on the up and up. I actually took the host aside and I called him out on his shenanigans(as he was part of these hands) and he asked me how much I lost and gave it all back in full; he was probably afraid of ruining his rep and figured he could by my silence---whatever. Just give me my $ and let me outta here.

Anyway, fast forward and long story short: you don't demand or even ask to bring your own deck or your own dealer(wtf); you simply do not play in games where you suspect any kind of thievery or trickery. Go somewhere else and forget about it.

I don't think this is the right forum (not a proper casino). No mention of a rake, probably something for the home poker forum.


If there is group cheating, then I think the smartest advice is to stay away. If they are desperate enough to wait a few months and just try to cheat you every other game, it's only a matter of time before they realize that it's easier to simply rob you on your way to/from the game.


If you believe your friend AND the host are both honest people, that don't realize there is cheating going on at least some of the time, I suggest a chat to get things cleaned up.


Re: Rounders style listening for someone to 'catch a hanger'. If you are concentrating on not getting cheated, you are neither playing your A game, nor having fun. It's a big price to pay to get into larger games down the road, and I suspect the larger games that you get steered towards may have some of the same problems.


Things that can deter cheats:
1. Cards always above the table.
2. Someone other than the dealer shuffles, and a 3rd player must cut.
3. Using a cut card (black card?) to protect the bottom of the stub.
4. Bringing your own decks, cheaper to get good quality plastics, but perhaps worth it to simply buy a dozen paper decks, and change throughout the game as needed.


As a corollary, and to help answer your question. I'd look out for dealers who:
A. Move the cards off the table at any time
B. Peek at the cards in the stub
C. Peek at the discards
D. Shuffle so they can view the cards
E. Shuffle their own decks
F. Cut their own decks
G. Don't protect the bottom of the stub.


Good Luck

Good advice. I'll go a step further... stay away if you have reason to suspect there is cheating.

I think so too.

These three are standard operating procedure in any game in which I play. We also
4. burn the top card before each round.

I agree. All of these are outrageous.

I have seen magicians do incredible, amazing tricks with playing cards.

Buzz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLIS4c2dUwc

+1 to all the people who said stay away if you even slightly suspect cheating.

Edit: to be clear, I'm not saying this is the be all and end all of cheating, but it's a small example of how ridiculously real people who are competent with cards can make things look.

Sam: Whenever there is any doubt, there is no doubt. That's the first thing they teach you.

Even if the the game is totally on the up and up you have a serious problem with it. Let's assume the game is fair after all. You will be looking for cheating and that will affect your normal skills at least some. You also may read something into a totally innocent situation, raise the cheating question, be proved wrong , and really get embarrassed or even be tossed by the host. Better to find another game that you are not already suspicious of.

agreed with others - whether or not the game is actually bent doesnt matter at this point; if you feel it is possible cheating is occurring then you'll be on edge forever. For any game you play in I would strictly enforce a cut card being used on the bottom of the deck - that cuts out a ton of cheats right there.