I've been playing in this home game for about two months now and these two hands happened in one night.

Hand 1:
I have a pair of 8's on a 89Txx board and villain is the PFR. He bets out $55 OTR, I put him on a busted straight draw and call. He immediately starts talking, you call your good. I wait for him to table his hand or muck. He flips over AJo and I show my 8's. He gives me a nasty look.

Hand 2:
I have 25hh on xx2T5hh. Villain (different villain from hand 1) bets $15 on the turn and $40 on the river. I call the $40 with bottom two pair. He immediately starts talking, I just have a ten. I wait for him to table his hand or muck. He shows QTcc and I table my two pair. The villain gets pissed and leaves but I think he was planning to leave anyways. The villain from hand 1 chimes in, that was a slowroll and I assume he thought that Hand 1 was also a slowroll.

Unless I have a really strong hand, I generally tend to force the agressor to show first regardless of talking, etc. Whenever I play a hand and I am the agressor, I immediately declare my hand and table it. I think by talking and probing after all bets are completed, that just slows down the game.

So basically am I slowrolling or are they slowing the game by not tabling their hands?

I don't think either was a slowroll - but I probably just table my hands immediately and move on.

I'd just soon avoid these situations all together. By "forcing" them to table their hands, you're apparently just hacking them off - not good for the game.

My guess is that either way you would have had to table both of your hands - so just keep the game friendly and let the cards speak.

Sarge

But on the other hand, there is absolutely nothing wrong with waiting for your opponent to show their cards when you called their river bet.

Neither one is a slowroll.

You probably should have voiced out on the spot and asked them to show first to avoid the misunderstanding.

Hand 1 - I can see waiting because he could still have a pair of 9's and think they're no good.

Hand 2 - Once the guy says what he has why wait?

You technically didn't do anything wrong. But unless these players have a history of being slowrollers, angle shooters, etc. then I really see no point in making them show once they've announced their hand and you have it beat.

I'll say you failed to follow etiquette, but are within ethical bounds and the rules. Villain announced the strength of his hand accurately, you could beat it, and forced him to show the losing hand.

If you have the winner, please just show it.

You are technically within the rules to force the last better/raiser to show first, but most people consider it common courtesy to announce hand strength so that only the winner must show.

To them, showdown should sound like this:
"I have two pair"
"I have kings up"
"Kings and 7s"
"that's good"
only then does K7 show his two pair. You better talk through it damn fast if it gets that complicated.

It's a funny thing, since I think it only really helps the experienced players (allowing them to hide a little bit of information), but those players are serious about it and you just antagonize them to not follow this etiquette. I wouldn't encourage you to act the same way, but realize that they see what you did as serious douchebaggery.

Personally, I have no problem just tabling the bloody hand, and I think it encourages the casual players to do the same so they're not tempted to waste time at showdown with pointless "no, you" nonsense.

This is an etiquette thing more than a true slowroll. If someone calls their hand, the most stand up thing to do is to table your hand and give them the option of mucking. Hand 1's villain was saying he was on a total bluff. Hand 2's villain said what he had.

It's good manners, but not a requirement. It depends on whether you'd rather keep it a gentlemen's game, or gain the information and tilt your opponents. My preference is the former. It's a better life strategy.

By forcing them to show their hands, I think this will affect future hands with the two villains. They aren't the typical passive fish at a home game so I think they might think twice before firing air or weak made hands on the river.

Also, I prevent any slowrolling or angleshooting on their part. In hand one I would feel digusted if I tabled first and he showed a pair of 9's after his speech. I've only played their about seven times in two months so I don't know if they are the type to pull something so I rather play it safe.

I can see how people think it's unethical but I'm just protecting myself in any situation that arises. There was an instance where one person misdeclared their hand as a straight on the river and the caller forced said person to table their hand. The caller won but I think they were friends. I don't want to throw away the winning hand because of something like that.

Is this reasonable or am I just trying to convince myself?

Just remind them politely that you have a right to see their hand and you are only showing yours when they have shown. Not a slowroll, but not really good for the game either.

Exactly. Live play has many fuzzy areas, and this is one of them. By stating their hands (or that they thought they were beat), they effectively tabled, and it's on you to show you have a stronger hand.

Regardless of whether you think it's a slowroll, this is something obviously upsetting to your opponents. You can argue about technicalities, or you can work towards contributing to a positive atmosphere.

I can't tell if you think think this is a good thing or not. I think this is a bad thing. Why would you want your opponents to stop firing on their weak hands? Calling them down seems to be working for you, so why do you want to encourage them to stop?

Why would you feel disgusted? Why are you trying to prevent anything? A pair of 9s is hardly a slowroll, it's a very weak hand. If you table the 8 and he tables a 9, then you laugh and say "Ahh, my read was right, you didn't have a straight!" and then you pick him off on a future bluff.

Protecting yourself from what? From losing a pot you would have lost anyway?

This is not the same situation. When someone claims a hand that beats yours, you wait for them to show. When someone claims a hand that you beat, you show.

You're just trying to convince yourself, sorry. Live poker is more than about finding the technicalities. It's about contributing to the overall tone of the table. Poker convention has it that a declaration of a hand (or "I missed") is the same as showing, so by waiting and forcing them to prove they have weak hands, you are, in effect, slow-rolling. Maybe not technically, but the emotional impact is similar.

its the gray area of slow roll, id be pissed if i was the other guy but id probably do the same thing you did on both hands

Generally when I take a line like that, I have a weak hand and want to go to showdown. I don't want to bluff catch for 20bb+ on a regular basis so if I can get them to check back hands these type of hands, I think that's a good thing. They would be betting a narrower stronger range so I can make decisions easier.

IMO, this whole mess could be easily remedied if it was protocol to just table your hand if it is your turn. An interesting thing is there is a player at the game that plays with headphones on and no one tries to table talk to him, well because its impossible. They just table hands without dancing around on the river. I definitely don't want to do that but I rather be seen as a douchebag with headphones instead of a douchebag that slowrolls.

Weird. I'm happy to bluff catch for 20bb+ on a regular basis. In fact, I do it all the time. My bankroll is happy for it. Rather than try to get them to stop, why not work on learning their physical tells and betting patterns that indicate whether it's a bluff or not?

Good luck on fighting decades (if not more) of the traditional way the game is played. Probably be easier if you just learn the nuances of live play.

Well, then stop slow-rolling. And don't wear headphones, either. Especially not at a home game, sheesh.

You have to give action to get action.

One of my friends I invited to our game last week wore sun glasses. LOL!! He won't be doing that again...

I don't think you understand how social interaction works. If this guy is who I think he is, this won't happen. He's playing his half of the etiquette game, and you just turned a cold shoulder. Lots of life is like this. People make a little offering of "hey, let's be friends, I'll go first" and you have the opportunity to say "sure, sounds like that helps both of us" (because some day you'll bluff at him on the river and want to muck). If you pass these deals up as a rule, you are in for a long grind in this world.

A player who said "you call, you win" and then showed a winning hand wouldn't feel safe walking back to his car, seriously. Maybe you don't care that much, but HIS expectation is that he would be way out of line to pull that stunt.

Just for argument's why do you think someone who said "you call, you win" hold on to their cards instead of just throwing them in the muck?

Always leave yourself outs. Sometimes you find yourself bluffing with the best hand.

I've called people with K-high, myself

yeah, if he says "you call, you win" and you say "I don't know, I don't even have a pair", or your bluffcatching bottom pair is worse than his middle pair, there won't be hard feelings about that. but that will be rare if they guy is reading your hands at all well.

I sorta understand everyone's perspective. I will try to reduce my douchebaggery.

I don't personally think it was a slowroll. As long as you show immediately after he shows, it isn't a slowroll.

In France, when we call, we say "Je paye pour voir" literally meaning "I pay to see", and I think that is what calling is. You are paying to see his cards. If he tables immediately there is no problem and no discussion.

And in general, I think poker players are too sensitive about these perceived slights.

To be clear, I don't think it's a slowroll either. But it does violate a bit of live etiquette. It also violates a principal tenant, which is keeping the fish happy.

People in America say that, too, but I don't. I pay for the pot. In fact, I often call and table first, allowing the bettor to muck without even declaring a hand. They usually tell me anyway. Clearly I don't need to know, because I'm scooping the chips. So why stop the behavior?

Well, of course. But he didn't, and we have a situation where "technicalities" conflict with general accepted procedure. You can stand and protest and insist that the technical interpretation be upheld. Meanwhile, you're irritating others and ensuring that this player stops trying to bluff you.

I like it when players try to bluff me. I like it a lot. A lot a lot. A whole bunch. Really, I want players to put in money with the worst of it, voluntarily. This is incredibly awesome. I don't understand how someone would want anything else.

Does it matter? If my opponent is too sensitive, and I'm profitable against the opponent, I'm going to be aware of and cater to his sensitivities. What do I care? If this is what it takes to be profitable, so be it.

It's just good business.

This, unless villains are the type of players to constantly play the "I'll bet first but try to avoid showing my losing hand, if I can" card.

I much prefer this to someone betting and then showing me his winning hand after I call. I'm perfectly happy never seeing my opponents' hands.

The first one is not a slowroll. When a player says "Good call" the proper etiquette is for them to toss their hand into the muck, then you can muck your hand behind them. By holding on to their hand til they have to table it, they are never showing the worst hand, but can possibly slowroll you on the best hand. (Example above, if you made the call with A7 for ace high putting him on a hand like KJ or a J with no pair, he says "nice call" you show ace high he shows a better ace high, THAT would be a slowroll.) I get stubborn about this at a table.

Number two is slightly a slowroll. He announced his hand, just turn yours up and win the pot.

NOTE: When I call someone on the river I never show my hand unless they do. If they say "One pair" and I have a set I just verbalize back to them "I have that beat". If they muck, I muck. If they table, I table. In fact, I've won with the worst possible hand before because of river calls where they make a value bet bluff, I call knowing I'm dead, but just for information (say on a new player to our game), then they say "good call" and muck the hand. Do I feel like I angle shot? No. When you call, it is your right to see their hand, and if you want this information, go ahead and take it. Just dont make a habit of doing it too often. Let the bluffers keep their hands down every once in a while.

Look, nittykitty, I got your point five posts ago!