This is about what constitutes a bet. Our table has no betting line. River card had been dealt. Player A took a stack of $100 chips in his hand and started to count them out in front of his cards, maybe two or three inches in front. Before that, his chips had been behind his cards. He counted out one stack of five $100 chips and had put down four $100 chips next to that stack. While still holding chips and appearing as if he was about to put down one more $100 chip to make a second stack of five, Player B says, "I call," and throws in a $1000 chip into the pot. Player A says he didn't call yet, and takes back his chips.

Did Player A bet or not?

I would not rule this as a bet. 2 to 3 inches in front of you is not far enough out, IMO, to constitute "putting your bet out". Players need some room in front of them for chip counting and such.

Plus he never completed the amount so how do you know how much he "bet". If he never got that last 100 out when the guy says call are you going to have his bet be 900?

No that's not a bet.

Well one thing you need to consider is where does the player usually place his bets or count chips. If all night the player put his bets in that exact spot I would be reluctant to know say thats where he counts them. But it sounds like the player had not finished acting and certainly he shouldn't have to bet the chips that still had in his hand.

Why don't you add a rule, making the cards the betting line, if this is a big enough problem to legislate?

Beyond the cards, it's a bet.

When there is no verbal declaration, a bet to me is when you stack out some chips, pause, and then push them forward.

Another way is to grab a handful of chips and toss them out in front of you.

And the polite poker thing to do as villain is wait until hero has finished doing whatever he is doing.

YES

and I am a nit about it.. I always make mention of chip/card location even when its not that person's turn, so there is no surprises... chips in front of cards are IN THE POT.

put something on top of your cards so they don't get swept in the muck, there is no need to have the cards in your lap.. there should be plenty room for your chips between yourself and your cards.

Its quite simple really.

Player A did not bet. Player B obviously has this hand won and really screwed himself by trying to shoot this angle.

chips in the pot remain in the pot unless verbal declaration was made before he initiated the bet. This is a bet. If no verbal action was made, then the chips he piled in are considered a bet, this is to prevent players from string betting. Case closed. nneeexxxxxt?

It seems pretty clear that Player A was just counting his chips. He was probably weighing the percentage of his stack that might take a hit if makes a bet so he was stacking them seperately from his stack. We all see players do this all the time.

It seems to me that Player B was trying to shoot an angle here or else he had the nuts and couldn't control himself. He probably cost himself that bet by just not being patient and protecting his action.

At best you can give Player A a warning and the rest of the players in the game. Institute a rule as of now that chips ahead of cards constitute a bet then there is no confusion next time.

Counting chips =/= forward motion IMO.

If you're cutting stacks before you say anything, you're just cutting stacks. Unless your arm is clearly out in the pot, or you push the stacks forward after cutting them, or you say "bet" then you didn't bet.

If he has the nuts here, isnt he raising?

One admittedly minor possibility- if B knows (as in, KNOWS) that A won't call the raise, calling gets a view of A's cards without costing any profit

I think you missed the entire question-- were the chips in the pot?
probably not.

although rude, you could ask to see the hand if he calls the raise. bad form, but possible

I see a definite east coast vs west coast interpretation. Back east you have betting lines that in many places are strictly enforced (so I've read). Any chips being put in front of cards would be considered in play.

Here in LA we have no real betting line (technically we do but it is so far out that no one really sees it as one), and most of us keep our cards next to our stacks and by the rail and count out our chips in front of them by an inch or two or three while we're thinking. This is different from actually going to make a bet and stacking and counting the chips, which is done farther away.

So my ruling would be that it was not a bet since he was thinking about it within a reasonable distance of his cards and stack.

This is why I said it depends on what the players usual practice was. Obviously this didn't happen in a vacuum assuming it didn't happen on the first hand in a game that isn't regular there is context.

Rather than worry about what the "rule" is they should consider what the usual practice in that game is.

Funny - at Canterbury in Minnesota, there was an enforcer/dealer giving someone else a stern warning about moving your cards behind your stack to look at them, because "in California card rooms, that's an all in bet - your cards are in front of your stack and whatever's in front of your cards is your bet."

Nevermind that they don't spread no-limit in Minnesota thanks to ninny legislators, but that was the example the dealer gave.

Maybe they do things differently in Northern Cali but here in LA we'd laugh at him. Keep you cards in front of your chips and they'll likely be swept up by a dealer.

edit to add: BTW, now you know that dealer is FOS so you can call him out on it next time.

Casino ... maybe ... depends on the place.

Home game -- definitely not. Tell player B to stop being such an angle-shooter.

I have heard they do this in the east. I generally don't count any place in the east as having actual poker.

That's ridiculous. So, he claims that, in California, I can just stack some chips a bit forward, pull my cards back, and that's going to be recognized as a bet? If I stop sliding my cards back halfway through, is that a string bet? I hope that dealer was being sarcastic.

Plus, don't they have betting lines at Canterbury? I thought they did. I would think betting lines would be standard for all poker tables.