On the other hand, if I'm wrong - it would be very much appreciated if someone could find a way to put me in touch with pfap. Next time I visit his home turf, I promised to show up to play at his home game. I think I promised to buy him a beer, too

Don't even waste any more time thinking that way.

I joined as a poster just the other day, as a result of this whole episode. I was finally spurred to action, so to speak, by the comments of many regarding the banning. After reviewing the whole thread that seems to have been the "final straw", I mentioned that I was pretty surprised by the level of pfapfap's direct criticism of TT, both for it's openness and it's apparent, in my view, attack on his integrity. I also mentioned that I was surprised by the almost instant banning of him and open, public revealing of such banning.

I just wanted to bring an "outsider" viewpoint to this thread. I have no dog in this fight. I admitted liking most of pfapfap's posts, and particularly enjoyed him because of his obvious passion for the game, which I share.

I am probably older than most here. I also have the life experience in business of managing about 85 people. I have one boss, the general manager. I have been given considerable authority over all the operations of the company. Three times in the past 5 or 6 years, my boss has discussed with me a decision I have made, and he mentioned that he probably would have made a different decision than I did, given the roles having been reversed. He NEVER would have considered overruling my decision, unless, of course I had violated a law or something. I have probably been hung in effigy in the lunchroom more than once by the "mob", but that comes with the territory.

TT obviously has been given certain authority by the owners of this place. He mentioned that he already had their input on a possible banning in the past (I will take his word for that fact). At most, there may at some point, be a discussion of this banning, and a possible mentioning of the after-effects, but I would be shocked beyond belief if there is a reversal of this decision. Right or wrong, in all of our opinions, TT exercised his authority that was given to him. As I've also previously mentioned, nothing happens in a vacuum. All future actions we take in business decisions are (hopefully) based on the entire knowledge we bring to the table at that time, including the memory of this incident. Perhaps TT may reflect on the exact handling of this banning, but I doubt seriously he will regret it, overall. He seems to have pretty well settled on it being appropriate, in his mind.

I may be way off base here, because I'm not familiar with the "rules" around here, but I already think the management allows a tremendous level of freedom in comments in posts, particularly somewhat critical of the ownership. Are there limits to their allowance? Obviously.

One last comment. I know the mods are very busy people, but Lottery Larry, if you have time one day, could you see if I have set a record of some kind. I posted 16 times before I was directly criticised. It may have to do with the fact that I can't seem to post in less than 3,000 word increments, and no one in their right mind would waste their time reading my viewpoints.

Thank you, and yes, that's a veiled suck-up. I would hate to get banned in my first week

It certainly isn't because one poster is here providing great insight.

I imagine this is a post that pfap himself would respect as it is of pretty sound logic and perspective.

As for not reading your points, you fail. Just no reason to reply to it if I have nothing to add or adjust input wise. Not saying I'm 100% with your posts, but nothing I feel a need to comment on. Besides, who gives a **** about my opinion? lol

Wow, no wonder you think this is all getting stupid.

Sorry, I'm not aware of a record board that we keep, on that topic. There's no way to dig that up, either :P

I have seen, multiple times, posters directly criticized on their first post.

I think he meant the record was that he managed to go that long before it happened.

It was my feeble attempt at humor, of course, but I am still a little shocked at getting so far along into my "history" here without much push-back

BTW, as I've said that I'm new around here, last night I visited for the first time the folks in BBV4L. OMG! There seems to be an entire world out there that I never knew existed. I'm 58 years old, and I learned more about sex last night than I've ever known.

Huh? I have read this entire thread and didn't see that

Ahhh poor baby. Not his precious integrity! People should be allowed to make open critisisms of others in a civilised society. If the offended party wishes to offer a refutation then that's fine.
Tyranical oppression of others views is what they do in places like North Korea.

That's a pretty powerful statement in just a few words coming from LL.

As for me, I'm holding out hope. I don't know pfap or *TT* IRL but it seems as if they may know each other. If so, maybe a cooling off period and/or some good ole fashioned hand-shaking like gentlemen could eventually come about.

I don't disagree with this sentiment towards freedom of speech. However, I commented at the time that I don't think pfapfap used an appropriate approach in his line of commenting. I would have more diplomatically explained my viewpoint in the appearance of TT defending what I considered to be poor behavior on the part of SD, if I held that view. To immediately challenge TT's motives for his support seems to be unfair to me. Pfapfap may have been entirely correct in his assumptions, but I felt it was not the proper way to draw that evidence out, if it ever could be drawn out in public.

I spent a portion of my life defending the right of people to openly criticize others, especially those in positions of authority. However, you don't always get that chance to do so in a forum provided by the authorities, so you might want to do so in a way that prevents them from just shutting you down altogether. Otherwise, since we aren't in North Korea, you are more than welcome to use your own forum, with all the protections of our free society.

While I agree with your basic points here about delegated authority and upper management supporting managers' decisions, I would like to offer the following:
If pfapfap's questioning of TT's objectivity in defending Deeb was the "final straw", I think that TT may have overreacted (a lot).
Obviously, since TT works for 2+2, and SD represents 2+2, TT does factually have some job-related (financial) interest in the situation. And it would not be surprising if he tended to sympathize with SD here, even if unconsciously. (To some extent, it's his job to support SD, at least within reason). There would be nothing surprising or wrong about this; 2+2 isn't paying him to be objective, where 2+2's interests are concerned, but to advance and defend 2+2's interests (again, within reason).
But questioning his objectivity is certainly not the same as questioning his integrity, not even close.
Pfapfap definitely could have chosen his words better. But I still think that a permanent ban (based on what we know) seems way too much.
If I were TT's boss, I would not overrule his decision.
But I would counsel him that reconsidering it would be seen as a sign of strength, not weakness. And hope that he'd come to the right decision on his own.

"Final Straw" implies that the last event, in and of itself, is nothing - and it alone would be inconsequential.

Hooray for metaphors!

Agree, (I may have said something similar elsewhere)

but you bring up a point - could be *TT* had a direct hand in selecting SD to represent 2+2, and Pfpap slamming SD's behavior specifically as it relates to how 2+2 may come across to avg. joe watching could be taken as a personal attack on TT's judgement.

Doesn't justify a permaban, but certainly could explain the "good riddance" comment and the feeling it behind it.

I approve of this message.

Yup this pretty much sums it up quite well

I had my first post deleted recently, I wonder if the Free Pfap avatar influenced that action.

I had an EXTREMELY weak deletion too. Who knows, perhaps we are not being tolerated.

For some reason, when I post this picture, it gets deleted:



Let's see if it stays.

What's the point?

Joined just to show support

Might as well tu/ard things up since we seemed to be having a more or less reasonable discussion about an obviously tense situation ?