I've been playing in a private club (it's a cigar club) for the past dozen years, maybe more. This club has an initiation fee, and monthly dues.

They also have a small private room, which we used to play cards. We would not rake a penny, and all guest were personally invited by existing players. The club did make money when people ordered food and drink, just as if we were eating at the club.

All of a sudden, about two months ago, the club shut down ALL poker games. We weren't the only game...there was probably one a night.

Apparently, a couple other restaurants/clubs in the Beverly Hills area also stopped running games (these were also non-raked games - only benefit the venue was food/beverage).

My question: Is it illegal to play cards in a club/restaurant? I'm talking about a non-raked game, where the club doesn't charge anything beyond regular dues to play. And it's main business isn't hosting card games...no different than the gin games people have played for decades at country clubs.

Thanks.

Laws vary by state. This is California?

For many businesses, the small gains of hosting poker are not worth the risk of getting busted. They worry they could lose their business.

It's not really hosting...we provide our own chips, cards etc...I guess the casual nature of these games is the same as those in the men's grill rooms at country clubs.

It is California.

Thanks.

Don't trust legal advice from random strangers on the internet, obviously...

I believe (but am not certain) that in california, social gaming is only legal in residences, and is explicitly illegal in business places, even after hours and by invitation only, unraked, whatever.

It is also true that even if the game actually IS legal by whatever technicalities, the owner would not want to have to defend himself in a legal case that might arise. If you watch a lot of Perry Mason or read about Supreme Court rulings, you think the law is a clean, logical, precise machine with sharply defined distinctions, but at the street level, what's legal, illegal, and not worth fighting over blend into each other a lot.

Very similar thing happened to us. Private game in a guys shop, late at night, just using his space. Then one day he got spooked over the legal vulnerability, and that was the end of that. He was going through a divorce, and it wasn't worth arguing about if it came up in court.

In Ontario your game would be illegal. The reason for that is that the Club is benefiting from your presence, and your presence is due to the game. Therefore the logic goes that the profit they make on the food is a result of your gambling activity and that makes it illegal.

I am not saying it makes sense but, in Ontario, this is the law.

found some relevant legal code:

The legal system might well consider providing space as hosting. Don't get caught up in the meaning of words. I mean, if I get the flu, I am the host.

This is my point. Why take the risk? What is the upside? They sell some food and drinks. It could be a legal nightmare for them. If it were my business, I would want to be on rock solid ground.

The club maybe not be raking the pot but they are charging a time-rake collected monthly instead of hourly or half-hourly that you find in a casino. Although I don't know the law in your area, I would guess this is probably enough to make the game illegal by strict definition of the law.

Could you rake a buck out of each pot and donate it to charity? How do those charity rooms work? What are the hassles in getting registered as a charity and could the club set something like that up while still running their legal side of the business??

Putting aside the legality of the games themselves, the issue may have to do with other matters such as the clubs business license or liquor license. In NY for example it is violation of the laws of a liquor license holder to allow gambling on premises .... and this is a seperate matter laws about the game itself

Did you ask the club why they did this?

Someone wrote a while back that lawyers cannot post legal advice in forums. It is against their rules and can lead to disbarment. So you are guaranteed to get unreliable advice. Take full advantage of that opportunity.

linky

Seems more likely that lawyers don't give legal advice online because

1) They don't want to do their profession for free
2) They don't want to open themselves up to potential complications from people following that advice

...but there's no reason that they can't. The only problem would be if it wasn't clear the jurisdiction in which the legal advice applied (only where they are licensed to practice).

Are you telling me someone here was wrong about something? Dang.

Ironic that the legal advice in that column is intended for lawyers (in the writer's jurisdiction?!), and funny that some of it is so basic that any first year law student should know it, e.g.:

I have something of a legal background and feel quite free to give one piece of advice about the law.

Talking to management wouldn't work - I'm not even a member!

We actually have a few attorneys in our game...however, none of them seem to know the local law here.

One of the players knows a local sheriff - who basically says busting private games is just about the last thing in the world he wants to spend his time on.

In the meantime, we are trying to find options - what made it great was that the room was usually available, free and we usually had 3-5 regulars hanging around at the club so we could play all the time.

Yeah, that definitely sucks. Can't one of the attorneys look into the law, and then reassure the club, offering to defend them pro bono if they are charged?

Let me ask you a question.

Suppose you are running this country club. You become concerned about the legal consequences of these games. You are worried about fines, loss of liquor license, criminal charges, problems with the zoning board .... whatever it may be.

These games aren't your business. Whatever revenue you have made from these games is negligible .......

Are you going to to take these risks because some guy who plays in the game and is an attorney assures you it is no problem and he will defend you for free if you are "charged" (BTW does that include representing us in front of the Zoning Board when we seek a variance to build a new structure and members of the zoning board express concern that we are really operating a casino so they deny our request.... will you represent us when our insurance gets cancelled because we are running an unlicensed gambling house?)

realistically its time to just move on and find a new place to have the games. These people are just protecting their business and from their perspective there is no significant upside to these games.

No I would not. But maybe the club owner would. It doesn't hurt to ask.