Played a 24 man tourney last night, came down to the final three and 1 & 2 pay out. It was myself and a couple left (bf & gf) I offered to split 3 ways and they would get 2/3 of the pot to my 1/3 (my wife and I have done this multiple times when it is us two and one other left). I had a small lead over him and she was a little behind both of us. They declined, which i didnt like, but could deal with. Then as play went on, they were blatantly checking each other down every time! I asked "so would you have checked that against me?" and they both said no way and admitted to double teaming me! After losing a few blinds, i finally wake up with a hand and call the guys all in with JJ. He shows AJ, but then rivers an ace to beat me and leave me with a little under 2 blinds left. I just said take it, there is no way I am going to beat both of you with that and walked out. Is it just me or does that stink to high heaven?

it's not unethical, it's cheating.

It stinks a lot. Unfortunately, there's nothing really that can be done about it. You can't force somebody to play a hand.

It sucks. You should, after calming down, talk with the host and express your concerns. Don't make a big stink, just try to make clear that it's against the spirit of the game for two people to team up against a third person. I wouldn't say "cheating", as you don't want to escalate a delicate situation, but try to get your concerns heard. Hopefully the host will then at least encourage his players not to soft-play.

But, again, nothing really can be done. It's not like a casino where they can just kick the cheaters out. And the game won't be very enjoyable if too much of a stink is made.

Try to approach it with class and dignity, and don't expect any sort of immediate resolution. Play your game well and don't get dragged into bickering or holding grudges. Hopefully people will ultimately respect you and the way you conduct yourself, and in the long term will be more inclined to play honest poker simply because of association.

yeah, going to talk to the host this week about it but I am not expecting too much. I will probably skip that weekly game for few weeks, which sucks because it is a fairly soft game.

Then you're a double loser... Don't let things like this throw you off your game (leaving the table when you still had chips???) - and don't let things like this drive you away from a profitable game. Speaking to the host privately and leaving it at that is the best course of action.

probably should have played it out i know, but i was PISSED. I will be back and am still way ahead with that game, just going to play others instead for a couple weeks.

I understand wanting to take a break, and I've certainly done it before. But in the end, you should realize that it's yourself allowing yourself to be pissed. Okay, so they're soft-playing each other. As I'm fond of saying, you can't control other people. You can only control what you do. You can control if you let this bother you. People soft-play each other all the time everywhere, so if you can learn not to let it bother you so much, you'll be better off for it.

That's not to say I wouldn't have been irritated, as I surely would have been, and I can certainly see myself storming out in a huff. I'm far from perfect, but I strive towards my ideal. Serenity now! Now that you're away from the situation, you can look at it and see how you can handle yourself better in the future.

IMO, if you can get over it within the next week (and I certainly hope you don't let it fester for that long), you should continue playing. Don't even mention anything about it to the players involved. New day, new game. As far as you're concerned, it was in the past, and we all know only the present counts in poker. Play well, be nice to everybody. Put yourself above it all and show that you're more interested in a good, friendly game than anything else. This is +EV.

They openly admitted colluding? Call the Floor and get them both DQ'd immediately.

No mercy for poker cheats.

Of course, if you would have won the JJ vs AJ hand you would be going to BBV and bragging how you busted some soft-players.

If you are going to tilt next week, don't go. Otherwise, you are a sucker for not returning (if it is as soft as you claim).

Questions for everyone... I understand how the couple's soft-playing can hurt OP's equity in the tourney since OP will gain prize money if one of them gets knocked out. This is frowned upon because it is against the spirit of the game. But is it cheating?

How is this different than the non-verbal agreement to checkdown a hand when a player is all-in? If the couple was letting each other know the strength of their hands in the multiway action (to squeeze people out, sucker people in, etc.) then that is obviously wrong. But this was not happening.

dont think i would be bragging in BBV, as I have done well in this game and have never posted about it till now. but nice try...
As far as how is this different than a Non-Verbal agreement to check down? My first guess would be because it is Verbal...

Pfap, I am pretty much over it now, I probably was after some cursing in the car on the way home actually. I was just wanting to make sure that i was pissed for good reason last night

what's with the 24 player tourney and only paying out 2 places? and if there is someone running this tourney, i would have called them over as soon as they verbalized that they were colluding, even the least organized host would have to ask the dealer if it was verbalized and at the very least, maybe they'd play it straight.

This is a minor difference since at some point in a poker player's career it would be verbalized (away from the table) to him/her that checking it down is often the optimal play while someone is allin. I understand that this is a different situation since you weren't all in, but the principle is the same. There is no sense in them playing hard against each other as that will boost your equity (assuming it isn't a winner take all or something like 90% to first place).

I've always been a bit weary of calling soft-playing cheating. Personally I never softplay my girlfriend at the table because I know I can make better use of the chips than her in the tourney (I am a better player). But if I felt we were of equal ability, I would be very tempted to soft-play from an equity standpoint in a tourney (softplaying in cash games are meaningless unless there is a giant stack you want to bust and need chips). Of course, I wouldn't be stupid enough to verbalize it at the table but it would accomplish the same thing. Softplaying also goes against the spirit of the game (to some degree) and it doesn't look good.

Would you be as upset if they decided to check down every hand but never said anything at the table?
If yes, then do you get upset when players check down marginal hands while another player is allin (a similar situation IMO)? If no, then I don't see why you are so upset.

My thoughts as well, but to each their own.

You don't think it's cheating? OP is essentially playing a winner-take-all HU match, where villain gets to choose from the better of two hands and has two independent chip stacks, only one of which is in danger against OP at any point.

My thoughts alos. Pretty poor sit up with only 2 prizes. Should be 4 deep maybe 5

Is this cheating? The way I define cheating it is. THey are refusing to play against one anohter so the only time one has chips at risk is against the OP. And who's to say that some of their actions don't lead to him folding at some point and then they check it down from there.

Checking down a hand when a player is all in should only be used when it is in your best interest that said player is eliminated. There's no point in bluffing, but if you have a good made hand or possibly a huge draw there is good reason to be betting rather than checking. Assuming every hand involving an all in player multi way should be checked down is wrong.

For me, the word 'cheater' is too harsh. I think this is type of collusion is a gray area between a legitimate strategy and cheating (many will disagree). The couple's actions go against the spirit of the game for sure, but they aren't manipulating the cards or doing anything in secret.


I didn't say that. I said OFTEN it is the optimal play to check down a hand. Obviously, if you have a decent but non-nut hand, such as top pair/decent kicker, you should bet to give yourself a better chance at winning the pot. You need to balance this against the equity you gain by having a player eliminated.

But this is getting off topic. A lot of players will check down even if they have a pretty good hand to give themselves the biggest chance of eliminating the allin player. Are these players cheaters? They are certainly colluding to screw over another player.

Once more point for the OP: The odds of this happening again are not very large. If the game is really juicy, these occasional collusion events will have a negligible impact on your results. Bring it up with the host, but don't go berserk about it since it may ruin the fun home game environment. You have bigger fish to fry... don't worry if a couple of sardines fall onto the floor.

OP - you should have politely informed them that it is cheating, because you are being unfairly disadvantaged by their collusion. Most people after being called out will stop it. If they do not stop it, hold the game up and call the director. If the director won't appear, hold the game up. Stall 5 minutes on every hand on every street, if they call clock on you then call clock on them every time, demand to see their mucked hands every hand, be a rules nit, etc. Make things really unpleasant for them. Then after the tourney ends say "nothing personal" and smile at them

They are cheating. If proper strategy was for the bf and OP to collude against the gf, would they be checking it down every hand?


Is OP the one always getting screwed, or are all 3 people being screwed equally?

I can't agree with you, unless often is changed to occasionally

You know what I meant

When it was all said and done after you took his girlfriend home, would you call what she and you did cheating on him? That would have been priceless.

Regardless, what they were doing was a form of collusion, which is cheating in my mind. It sounds as though you didn't really let it get to you while you were at the table, in turn not really affecting your play. Well done. The most you can do in this situation (since it sounds so casual), is to just calmly put it out on the table that what they are doing is unfair. Point out that they are checking down against eachother often, and when they do it again...make it over obvious that that is what's going on.

Really, as long as you at least got her phone number, then everyone wins.

Oh yeah, if this is a self-dealt tournament, I would probably take two minutes to shuffle each hand
Then every hand I deal I would unintentionally expose a card or two preflop.. WOOPS MISDEAL!
Then re-deal, then I'd forget to burn a card and flop five cards... WOOPS RESHUFFLE
Then I'd burn a card, flop three, then deal the turn card early
WOOPS!
Some guy would say 'what are you doing you are not respecting the game' then I'd say 'orly what about them?!?!?!?!'

Then all three of us would get kicked out, but it would be worth it

People, remember this is HOME POKER. Lately it seems there's a rush to take extreme action. Look at your own basement game, and I'm sure every week you could come up with situations that, if presented here, would be given far harsher assessment.

I'm not saying this isn't bad and shouldn't be stopped if possible... but really... calling the "director" over? Acting like a douche by stalling every hand? This is Stu, Bob, and Sally from accounting hanging around drinking beers. Remember your context.

MOMMMMM!!!!

I dunno, man, 24 man tourney seems pretty big for a 'home' poker tournament. I think this is more like a casual game. But OP provides no additional information.