One handed makes a lot of sense.

Do you see a functional (anti-mechanic) difference between using the cut card to cut and lift (one handed, onto the table) and cutting onto the cut card?

Every time the suspect dealer went to deal, I'd just say "deal me out please" or get up from the table... or if you want to be more passive about it, just muck your hand every time he deals to you after obviously not looking at it.

People will get the idea.

YOU SCREWED UP THE PATTERN!

I like the 3 or 4-pile crossover restack method, myself.

He has a brother and he would usually do a cut where he just left half of the deck on the table and dealt with the other half in their hand. It's a really weird move. I think this guy did it as well. I cannot remember if he did it for sure but I think he did the same thing. But the other night he would try and grab the deck and put the cut card in the middle somewhere and pull the other down. It just made no sense of what he was doing.

His brother would also shuffle face up but after made brought the subject up, his brother did not shuffle face up after that.

Sorry to be a killjoy, but it makes you like you don't know what you're doing. Please don't do it.

By sliding a card in and lifting the deck, you are increasing the potential of cards becoming exposed. Plus, it takes longer. Also, any two-handed cut is suspect.

Put the deck on the table. Put the cut card in front. Use one hand to cut the deck onto the cut card. Pick up the entire deck, with the cut card completely covering the bottom.

the standard way of doing it was developed to resist dealers training themselves to be mechanics and then cheating. The one handed cut is devastating to all but the most dedicated mechanics. People with the talent and devotion to defeat it can make a better/safer living as professional magicians.

Sorry LL, the mulit-cut hopschotch thing is vulnerable to sleight of hand, returning the deck to the previous order. I'm not aware of a false cut that takes advantage of the insert-cut-card move, but I don't want to have to worry about it. At a casino, I'd call the floor over immediately if I saw a dealer do it that way. I'd be surprised if you can even do it one-handed, but don't have the equipment handy to try it myself.

At a casual home game, the insert-cut-card move doesn't trigger my reach-across-the-table-and-do-it-myself response. If I let you get away with it though, take that as a sign that I don't rate you as clever enough to cheat and there are worse things about the way the game plays that I'm saving my credibility for.

Even if you're doing it one-handed?

A
B
C
D

dropped as D C B A

and picked up as

B
D
C
A

?? I'm trying to think of the sleight-of-hand that could get pulled off here.

Drop DCBA, pick up ABCD. I believe this is even in Darwin Ortiz' book as a simple false cut. Yes, it should be detectible to someone paying attention, but with minimal misdirection, trivial to pull off. Don't do it that way the first time, wait until people are relaxed. Remember, one of our goals is to make it so we don't HAVE to watch everyone like a hawk all the time.

Also, easy to deny fault: "really? I thought I dropped DBCA". Defeating a standard one-handed cut on the table requires highly practiced and specific moves. You could never claim it was accidental.

Where's the Queen? Easy money, ten gets you twenty, twenty gets you forty.

The more complicated you make it, the easier it becomes to obfuscate. And as gedanken said, you give yourself an easy out for putting them back together in the same order. Hell, otherwise intelligent people very often get twisted around when asked which flop cards came off the deck first, so it's not a difficult trick to pull. Also, the more cuts you make, the more piles you have to pick up, the easier it becomes to accidentally expose a card.

Tho' really, my main objection is I just find it annoying.

I would think that it would be easier to fake out a single cut than a back and forth cut (drop off left to right, come back right to pick up two stacks, then left to pick up the other two)
I'll have to see if I have Ortiz' book and eyeball what you're saying.

Not sure if it makes a difference, but the shuffler isn't the dealer and the shuffler doesn't cut the deck, either.

My other concern with a single cut is: it's my understanding that great card mechanics can crimp the deck so that someone else cuts it where they want them to (that may just be braggaccio)

Of course, I'm not expecting that in my game..... but it's not paranoia if someone IS watching you, either

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your "defeating a standard one-handed cut". Are you saying that the shuffler/deal is the one restacking the deck, rather than the cutter? Then I think your comments make sense to me.

It seems to me that in a standard, self-dealt home game--where the dealer does not cut the deck, any cut that is made and completed* should defeat a dealer who is a mechanic. Unless they are a really good mechanic, in which case they are not going to be defeated, or unless the player cutting the deck is collaborating with the dealer, in which case the situation is also rather bad.



*one of the strangest things I have ever heard at a poker table was that the cut off should complete the cut when cutting for a lady, but not for a man... which came with the corollary that completing the cut for a man was an insult because you were calling him a lady.

Yes, the "standard" practices are developed for a dedicated dealer. I'm not losing a lot of sleep over the hopscotch cut, just prefer to see the standard one. With a dedicated dealer, especially at a casino, I would insist on it.

A practiced mechanic can crimp the deck to encourage a cut at a particular spot. It's not foolproof, but it works surprisingly well. When I'm asked to cut, I try to randomly switch between 1/3, 2/3, and 1/2 the deck to foil this. I also think that's overkill, since I'm pretty confident that nobody I play with is capable of stacking the deck.

You're describing how to re-stack the deck in the same position, correct? Cut left to right, then stack right to left.

The more you're hopping around, the more people will get confused. Even more, the higher chance someone will re-stack it the same way and be confident it's different. I've had far too many discussions with people getting confused about the order of flop cards from a simple 1-2-3 off the top to think otherwise.

How is it easy to fake a single cut? Take half of the deck, put it on the cut card. Take the other half, put it on top.

^^^ true. one good way to make a very random-looking fake hopscotch is to mix up both the placing and retrieving of stacks


place like this:
then pick up stacks 3, 1, 4, 2

I will occasionally do a couple of face up riffles, just to bend them back. I couldn't ever see doing it 20x and staring, or 'allowing' that to be done.

Our game would be ez for someone to stack/set the deck. After I am the BB, I collect the just dealt cards, and shuffle while the next hand is played. Players may or may not offer them to be cut, and more than one player will decline a cut. Personally, I do a series of RRRS, repeating as time allows. I usually finish with a riffle and cut. We don't use cut cards.

When those that deal poorly are flashing the bottom card, or burn cards, they are called out and shown. Eventually they have gotten better.

I do have cut cards. Not enough people see the reason or have interest in using them.

I'm not one for allowing someone to cheat, but I'm also leery of calling someone out unless I'm sure at a 'friendly" home game. Different situations call for different solutions, but perhaps a private chat would help?

Thanks, that's what I'd read and seen, as well (card "magicians", not a poker game)

I vary between 3 piles and 4, as well, so it's hopefully harder to beat.

I don't think it's required at the games I play in, either. However, I decided (because of part I above) that practicing and using this type of cut might defeat the crimp setup AND make it harder to set the deck overall.

I figured that, if I make it my standard move, then I'm not calling anyone out if I use it.

Possibly being over-paranoid, but figured it didn't hurt much.


Not exactly- see below

Also, I don't think a dealer should ever get to shuffle and restack a deck. Our game procedure is- previous user shuffles, hands deck to future dealer. Future dealer cuts/stacks and then deals when scheduled. The idea being, the shuffler and the dealer should be defeating each other's attempts to stack'it.

If they're going to work as a team... not much I can do, other than pay attention.

I know about your process, pfap.

I was more referring to the comment gedanken made earlier, about using distraction to disguise the non-cut. I would think it's much easier to restore a deck when there's two stacks, rather than 3-4. Perhaps not.


Yeah, that's iffy. I try to make it clearer:

- single hand holds shuffled deck, to left of body.
- move arm left to right, dropping different-sized stacks in a straight line Arm is now to my right.
- Bring arm back in steady motion, picking up alternate stacks as I pass over. That should leave visible gaps for others to see.
- Arm is now to the left again, with 1-2 stacks still on table.
- Arm moves to the right again, picking up the rest of the stacks.

It actually moves very quickly, once you've practiced it.


As for shuffling, I also try to break things up:

- I'll riffle some even stacks, and some 1/4 : 3/4 splits together, to try to randomize cards in a less 'predictable' manner.

- I'll strip-flip as well, in between some of the riffles.

(strip-flip= flip top 1/4 of deck into other hand, then next 1/4 on top, and finish through the deck.. then back to riffling
In my mind, perhaps falsely, I think that keeping one hand out of control of the deck reduces the chances of manipulation that might occur when stripping with more 'casino-like' procedures.)

- I always end with a riffle or two.

- When I get the chance, I'll count down the deck sometimes before shuffling... or quickly wash the deck before shuffling. That breaks up a 'rhythm' I might have, as well.

It seems to me that if we are talking about a mechanic capable of setting the deck while shuffling with people watching then we are talking about a mechanic who can easily defeat their own cut, no matter what style of cut. I also doubt we will see many of them in low stakes home games. (or low stakes casino games for that matter.) But for a pro dealer/mechanic capable of stacking the deck in plain sight, that standard single handed cut isn't going to be much (if any) protection.

So self cutting=bad. And, if we are talking about someone with that level of skill, then we are talking about someone capable of crimping the deck so that most other people cutting would cut right to that mechanic's desire-- if they are using a standard single handed cut.

In most home games people would have a lot more opportunity to stack a deck because the overall attention level is a lot lower. On the other hand, if someone is relying on the table not watching to set the deck, they almost certainly don't have the skills needed to overcome a completed cut (of any style) by another player.

But if they do have the skills to crimp the deck, the style of cut most vulnerable to being exploited would be a single cut. The only ways I see to defeat the crimp would be Gedanken's deliberate choice of deck percentage (unless the choice was close to the crimp point) Larry's multi stack, or the cut card cutting (because the card is sliding in to a fairly random point in the middle, not just letting the deck split on its own)

But, we probably don't really have to worry about it, because if we are unlikely to be dealing with a mechanic at all in most home games, and if we are they probably aren't good. And if we are, and they are good, then they are almost certainly cheating in other ways, (holding out cards perhaps) which we have almost no defenses against.

So really, for home games it seems to me it comes down to a question of personal taste, and how much of a stickler for standardization you want to be.

Get better cards, then learn how to shuffle them properly. It's MUCH faster, and there's very minimal bending. I've shuffled and dealt decks thousands of times without ever having to bend them back.

But... ahh... uh...

Damnit. Seriously, tho', try it. I've only had one game reject it.

Ah, gotcha. My main contention is that it's easier to fool with a multi-cut with people watching. One cut, then someone watching knows for sure that it's been cut. But once you start spreading out piles, then things become confused, and even somebody who's watching can get mixed up, while insisting that it's right. I refer again to the conversations when an extra card is peeled off for the flop, and people are "sure" which it is, even tho' they're entirely wrong.

Granted, but again, if a shuffler is also cutting or restacking (in order to defeat the cut), there's something fundamentally wrong anyway.

If they are not touching the cards after shuffling and don't deal, either... then it should be limited to catching a team.

Sorry to keep on this, I don't think you really understand what I'm saying.

In addition to intentional re-stacking, a multi-step cut is more likely to be accidentally put back in the original order, especially if both the cutter and the re-stacker do it in a hopscotch manner.

Have you ever had to deal with pulling back one card off the flop? People get really easily confused with something as simple as the bottom card being the first one off of the deck. They're 100% positive on the order, and they're 100% wrong. You could have many people be convinced that the deck has been cut, when in fact it's been put back exactly the same way.

With one cut, there's zero confusion.

As much conversation that this thread has received, I feel that I am not alone in my fears for a clean game. When money is involved it seems like there is always going to be someone that will find an edge that is not legal. I truly play the game to get better and want to play without having to to worry about cheaters. Too bad that I den had to start this thread but by all of the responses I am shown I was not being a rules Nazi. So thanks to everyone for their replies.

I think most of us know we have a clean game.

For me, the procedures are being used so my regular players know what to look for when a new guy comes.

If everyone just does everything right, there's not much to worry about.

Besides, I don't think cheaters are gonna play at my cheeseburger stakes.

Busted a guy a couple years ago keeping cards in his lap. $.25/.50 NLHE, $40 max buy-in. You'd be surprised.

To be fair, he's the only player we've caught. The vast, vast majority of the people in our home games are straight and honest people.

Cheaters don't cheat for money. They cheat for power. Power is relative.