Playing NLHE/PLO round by round last night in a self-dealt home game. We're all experienced poker players and this game has been running for 10+ years. Last night we have the World Series on one TV and the WSOP coverage on another one. We're normally fairly focused on our poker game, but given the games on TV, as a group we're more distracted than normal.

There is a raise, and there are four to the flop. Flop comes out and SB checks, EP bets 20, CO calls and Button calls. Button looks up sees EP and CO looking at him while SB has his back to the table and is watching the TV. Button burns and turns. EP checks, CO asks how much is in the pot and starts to cut out chips. At that moment, SB turns around and we see he is still holding his cards clutched to his chest.

Is this a premature burn/turn and the turn cards comes back? Or is it a situation where the SB failed to protect his action and his hand is dead?

Does your opinion change if he says that he was planning on folding the flop?

In a home game, I'd call this one a premature board card and treat it accordingly:

1. The turn card no longer stands. Complete the flop action.
2. Burn and turn. The new turn will be what the river would have been. Commence turn action.
3. If the hand goes to the river, wait until turn action is complete, and then shuffle the premature turn back into the stub and deal the river straight off the top (no burn).

SB gets a mild warning to be careful and leave his cards on the table if he needs to turn around to watch TV.

Outside of a home game, I'm not sure what the ruling would be. I could certainly see an argument in a public cardroom that turning away from the table with his cards like that—importantly, out of everyone's view—kills SB's hand. There are just too many shenanigans that can happen if players can do stuff like that and still have their cards be live.

Thanks for the reply. Does your opinion change if CO had actually bet, button called and then SB turned around with his cards? IOW, where's the line between premature burn/turn and not protecting one's action?

I give an unnatural amount of slack to the guy playing the SB in my home game. I would say something about leaving the cards on the table and treat this as a premature burn and turn.

In a public game, the act of taking the cards off the table and out of sight might result in a dead hand though there is a range of possibilities depending on house rules and prior experience with the guy/gal holding the hand. I expect dead hand is something like the average ruling.

SB didn't call because of not paying attention, also did not have the cards on the table which would have triggered the others to say hey action is on you. If no betting occurred after the turn and said player wanted to call the post flop bet. Then return the burn and turn cards to the deck and reshuffle. If betting occurred after the turn then that player is SOL and hand is dead. If this were not a casual home game that hand would be dead as soon as the turn hit the table.

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His hand is dead.

The cards are never supposed to leave the table. That rule is normally loosely enforced or not enforced at all. But in this case, in my humble opinion, it should be enforced.

No.

I haven't read the other posted opinions yet.

Buzz

At a casino his hand is dead.

At a home game, I would lean towards killing his hand. He failed to follow the action. He failed to protect his action. He failed to keep his cards on the table. And significant action has occurred. So yeah, his hand should be dead.

IME, if a player does something like this, then they will apologize and muck their hand regardless on what cards they had. The other players shouldn't be penalized for such a stupid mistake, and the offending player knows this.

The player not only took the cards off the table, but he also turned around and hid them from the other players. Now likely this was just innocent distraction by the SB and not some kind of angle or whatever. But regardless of his intent , it is something that I would not try to fix, and it needs a mild penalty IMHO. So at our home game , I would rule his hand dead, politely, and explain why. Then the hand can continue with the remaining players. At a casino, depending on house rules, table dynamics, personal relationships and so on, rulings will likely vary some. Still killing the hand might be the most likely result.

What if SB was leaning back three or four feet from the table, watching TV, both of his hands were folded on top of his stomach, and his cards were completely hidden behind them?

Well, he's very clearly not protected his action and he's gone out of his to not show interest in the pot, so in that sense I want to call it dead. He can't exactly claim that anyone else is at fault here when he's done so well at hiding his hand. Can't imagine there are too many card rooms where you'd be allowed to do this and have your hand ruled live either. Cards are supposed to stay on the table.

Does your opinion change if he says that he was planning on folding the flop?[/QUOTE]

Mostly it just ends the problem. Once he's said this it's not like he's going to change his mind if you pull back the turn, so just muck his hand and let the other players continue.

As far as home game rulings go, since there are so many variations on minor poker rules, first consideration is consistency (if this happened last week, or a month ago, tend towards doing the same again so there's no "Hey, you didn't make him do x"). If it's a new situation, I'd tend towards whatever most amicably solves the dispute. If the guy says he was folding anyway, and no harm's been done, then the problem goes away. If everyone's happy with a solution, then just say okay and you can always tack on "But in future we need a fixed rule" and come to an agreement.

Don't want to hijack the thread, but we had a similar situation, and I was thinking of asking, anyway. It was Wed., so only the World Series on tv. Two to the flop, and flop action completed. The dealer, among others, was paying attention to the tv, and was told it was time to deal. He burned, then put out 3 cards for the flop. But there had already been a flop.

People said he should shuffle all the cards back in and redeal the turn, but he thought that the 1st card off could still be the turn, since that is what it would have been. But there was some disagreement over the actual order of the cards, though the dealer (not in the hand) was pretty sure he knew.

The situation was dealt with fairly painlessly (it is a friendly group) but it did potentially screw one person out of a big pot since she had flopped a set. Just wonder how others would have handled it.

The current version of the home game that I play in has sometimes distracted people, is limit and plays for low stakes. We're probably just making SB fold/call and playing the turn as dealt. Agreed that it's not the casino way, and could cause other problems.

For a ruling on your game... I'll hold all players responsible for knowing who has cards, and where the action is. I'll hold SB most responsible for hiding cards, not following action, nor protecting their action. I'll just kill the SB hand, and move along with a lesson learned. SB checked the flop, and perhaps if SB connected with a big hand or draw, would have been more careful. I don't think it's unfair punishment, and I'm relieved that SB says they were planning to fold the flop.

Regarding EP and/or BTN objecting to the premature turn playing, sorry. You both had a chance to stop the action until SB acted. The natural turn was dealt, too bad it looks like it helped CO more than you.

Regarding how much SB would have do to protect their action, short of removing cards from table, hiding them, turning away and not stopping the turn from being dealt. I think I'm mostly leaning towards a dead hand if they don't make an attempt to stop the turn from being dealt, or immediately speak up. Long time home game, with no rule or precedent for dead hands, I'm not killing a hand that leaves the table, just for leaving the table.






Could randomly pick one of the 3 cards (face down, mixed) and make that the turn. Shuffle the other 2 back into the stub for the burn and river.

Could declare all 3 dead and burn and new turn.

If you know 100% which was the actual turn, use it and shuffle the other 2 back into the stub.

Perhaps most importantly, decide what to do the next time it happens, before it happens again.

So then the first card he dealt for the flop should have been the turn.

The dealer's way seems correct and fair to me.

But if she flopped a set, she already had a set. Only if she turned a set with the card the dealer (and I) thought should have been used as the turn did she get screwed.

Buzz

It could be either depending on the nature of your game (friendly vs casino). However, since he was not the only one not paying attention (ie dealer and others), I would go with premature burn and turn. Player gets a stern warning cards do not leave the table. A quick spading of the deck after the hand should be done.

No. We could take him at his word, but how can we be sure it is not because he saw the flop.


If there is no doubt, and I mean no doubt by anyone, then leaving the "correct" turn is fine. Finish the betting and if a river is needed, shuffle the other tow exposed cards into the stub, cut, then burn and river.

If there is any doubt, then I think you have to shuffle the whole second flop into the stub, turn without burning and continue as normal.


As a side note, KITN to all in the hand and the dealers for not paying attention while in a hand.