What's the deal with rake free games and their legality in Florida

I know in Louisianna they are totally legal for example

Any "busts" over rake free games in Florida ever ?

Florida allows social poker that meets their "penny-ante" criteria:

1. The host cannot take a rake or other monetary consideration in exchange for hosting the game.
2. No player may win more than $10 in a single "round, hand or game."
3. The game must be conducted in a dwelling (typically a private home, but the law includes lots of additional exceptions).
4. No advertising is allowed.
5. All participants must be at least 18.

You can read the statutes here. The $10 limitation is the worst part of this law and makes most Florida home games illegal, unfortunately. The good news is that low-stakes home games don't seem to be on the radar of most law enforcement agencies, so your risk of being busted is extremely low.

I can't recall ever hearing about a home game bust that wasn't an underground raked game. However, not long ago a free bar league got raided in Tampa, but this falls outside the scope of a home game.

Since there is no fee to play and no money is wagered on the games, Nutz owner Richard Danford believed he was complying with Florida's gambling laws. Evidently the Florida Division of Alcoholic Beverages and Tobacco disagreed. It expressed this disagreement by sending its agents, assisted by black-masked local police officers "in full riot gear" with "weapons drawn," to raid a Texas Hold 'Em tournament at Louie's Grill and Sports Bar

I mean wtf is that
Pretty scary

What is nutz? How does it work? Do you have a link to something?

idk about florida, but rake-free games in people's homes ARE legal here in California, and the cops showed up at one I know about. Guns drawn, arrests made.

The law is not going to be very clear no matter where you are. Most state's gambling laws were written in the 19th century. Very few cases of home games or home-like games go to trial, and when they do, they are usually complicated messes of drug/alcohol/weapons charges, minors present, rakes and quasi-rakes (a lot can be made to look like a rake)... Bottom line is the root question of whether a rake-free game in a person's house is REALLY legal in that jurisdiction probably has no case law to set the standards. Even if you ask a local lawyer, you are very unlikely to get a clear and reliable answer.

Cops are not lawyers either, nor are they experts on the difference between poker and blackjack, let alone whether a court would consider a league prize pool, dealer tips, or a pizza fund a "rake" under your state/county/city's definitions. If they are alerted to a game, they might just take the chips, cash, tables, and everybody's ID and let the lawyers sort out the mess.

In practice, a low-key home game among friends virtually never runs into trouble with the law. Once you get on their radar, legal or not, your life will be a mess. So keep under the radar; it's simpler for everyone that way. Don't rake. Only invite people who treat you, your home, and your game's privacy with respect. Don't advertise to random strangers. This is also good practice to avoid attention from sensitive neighbors and some idiot who might think your .5/.10 game is full of high-rollers and try to rob it or mug someone on the way home.

He's referring to the second link in my post above. A free bar league in Tampa was busted a few months ago.

While this is troubling, I think there's a difference between a come-one-come-all bar league business and a weekly cash game between friends.

Gedanken is spot on. You'll never be 100% safe from being busted even in a legal game, but as long as you take reasonable precautions, the risk is extremely low. I work in a field where a gambling arrest could be catastrophic to my career. Obviously I avoid club games, but I play in home games with little concern.

If you are running a real unraked "social" game in Kentucky you are pretty secure from law enforcement about poker. As a host just don't do anything to gain money or benefits from running the game except winning hands. Voluntary donations are also cool if they are not actually to only benefit you! The only time you might get police involvement is excessive noise, parking on someones lawn/blocking driveways, and the old bugaboo of players loud cursing/fighting each other on your front yard. These Kentucky type laws are in force in a lot of other states also!

Can we stick to Florida discussion please


Anyway I live in Miami and never heard of any problem at any game
Supeised local casinos don't push to bust em up considering their all illegal

Even if rake free

So if a bar has a Risk tournament, they would be equally liable? After all, you are throwing dice. Gambling on world domination.

Nutz in more ways than one.

we're not allowed to compare one state to another, to see how things might be handled?

Oh, wait:


oops

Oh pshh

I was asking what are the Lawson Florida , was asking if they were similar to Lousiana (which im familair with)or not

They obv aren't and are irrelevant

U really got me tho ...

I have the same conversation every week with the guys at the card shop.

So, kids pay $5 to participate in the Pokemon tournament; and the winner gets a prize, and the store makes money.


Why can't I play Pokermon with a buy-in here again?

Something to consider in the Nuts Poker League story is that the Tampa area has a large Seminole casino (Hard Rock) and several parimutuel poker rooms. I'd love to believe that this isn't a factor, because what realistic effect can a free bar league have on the local casino/card room business? If anything, these free games introduce new players to the game and may even generate business.

More likely, it's because a) Florida has crappy, vague poker laws that are open to this type of interpretation, and b) Florida is full of idiots who scream "WON'T YOU THINK OF GOD AND THE CHILDREN?!?!?" whenever any kind of poker game is mentioned.

WSPTOTC! indeed.


Someone knee-jerking, or responding to allegations of something nefarious under the surface of the game is much more likely. A lot of the bar games here are playing cash on the side semi-sanctioned, because they know that nothing will happen to them. [I think the bars are nucking futs because they put their liquor license at jeopardy, but hey... ...gotta sell a few extra draft beers somehow.] It's just as likely to believe someone alleged drugs or whatever in the game and ZOMG! GAMBLING! raid happens.

One of those could be the motivator behind the raid, but based on the one article I've read they didn't find anything like that. So instead, the Assistant State Attorney basically reinterpreted the statutes and charged everyone with running/working for a gambling house, a third-degree felony:

We've hashed that topic to death, repeatedly, but they likely show up, find nothing they were looking for, and then say, "Lol, gambling."

Agreed on both counts.

#beatingadeadhorse

I am as shocked -- Shocked! -- to find gambling in Florida beer halls as I am to find dead horse beating on 2+2.

not to mention a state junior district attorneylet (pronounced: "wannabe politician") blowing hard on a hotbutton issue with little regard for logic or facts. As we age, it all starts to look so... familiar.

Okay, that's just sick

We know where the sickness lies around here, and it's not in gedanken's head.

But thanks for bumping, Larry, so I could remember to give this . It made me laugh really hard; I had a mental image of a tadpole with a briefcase talking to the local news.

So, there's another body part of ged's that you want to discuss, freakboy?

Sigh. I've got to remember to use boldface rather than italics from now on.

Does this mean that in a low stakes cash game, say .05/.10 a player must quit the game if they win $10?