example: you and one or two of your regular players are in a cash game or late in a tourney against a player that is not as regular, not well liked, or a total douchenozzle. have you ever found yourself in a spot where, with or without verbal communication, you and an ally either try to not mix it up in pots or try to do things to take out this player ?

i have seen this happen...is it right ?

No.

And...no.

ahhhh.....no!
Are u an idiot?
Why would you ask this question?
ban OP! plz!!

Soft play is colluding. Don't collude.

I've "allied" with another player without verbal confirmation. But it isn't because we don't want to only take each other money. If a spot comes where I can stack this "allied" player, I do instantly. The only "allied" part is we both know we are the good players at the tables and we're feeding off the 8 fish at the table.

He never said he did it. He never said he approved of it. He just asked a question.

Of course it's not right. At my game last night, it was three way in an Omaha EOB hand. On the river, a player said, "Let's not get quartered" to the table in general. One, he gave away that he had the nut low. Two, it was an attempt to collude with any other player who might have the same nut low.

I felted my GF 3 times over the holidays and she felted me once... No love lost at the tables, I was happy to take her money!

Pervert.

(...not that there's anything wrong with that.)

If there is a third player involved in the hand or its a tournament I'll play as normal.

In a cash game, I'll check down heads-up hands with friends sometimes (especially if there is a rake).

anybody ever wonder why there was a nlhe poker explosion in 2003? in 2002, there must have been a ton of people willing to play the game, but somehow they weren't.

here's the story I heard. people who tried found themselves at a table of pros who were waiting for somebody new to sit down. then the pros would clean them out while explicitly or implicitly softplaying each other. no fun, this game. Sure, there was a component of the new guy not being as skilled as he thought he was, but softplay among the regulars at cardrooms was rampant.

only when TV and the internet brought a sizable rush of new players did people "discover" that it was actually safe to play this game. Once there were enough tables that the pros didn't play each other at all, softplay and collusion weren't a problem. at that point the explosion could happen.

so if you want to kill poker again, softplay your friends, and maybe learn some subtle forms of collusion.

lol

Once your @ the table put all the relationships aside and go for the chips

There's a certainly level of tacit collusion going on in home games where you have husbands and wives, bothers and sisters, fathers and sons playing. It's natural, and you're going to have to live with it.

I played some 6-handed Omaha this weekend where the players were myself and my wife, my friend Marco and his wife, and my friends Paul and Ken. In one hand, I knew a pot-size raise would not only accomplish my primary goal of isolating against Paul, but would probably squeeze my wife out of the pot -- but since I'm married to her, and she probably already "stole" $20 from my wallet, I can't logically factor her calling into my EV situation.

My wife and I play 100% against each other, but there's no denying that once we're head's up - me felting her doesn't do anything, except make me give her more money. [Sure, it changes the table-stakes, but lets keep this simple...] Similarly, Marco+Wife earn one salary, but they keep separate funds for incidentals (which includes poker, gifts, etc). While Marco and wife have separate accounts, and both enjoy the bragging rights for stacking each other, they know that neither of them can exactly go broke playing against the other one.

There will always be some level of "soft play" when people using one money are involved - and I've watched plenty of "friends" check hands down to each other in nearly every venue I've played in -- to be friendly, to avoid higher rakes on splits, to avoid variance, you name it. People soft play pretty much all the time.

You're right that in the micro-stakes games among friends and spouses that you play, that this kind of thing can happen a lot. But you've made it clear that your game is well below your income level and that food and fun take priority: the poker is just a casual bonus.

I want to make sure we're clear that in general soft playing hardly ever happens, and is very much frowned upon, especially in the context provided by the OP.

its not considering softplay if three big stacks in a sitngo and one small stack left (3 spots played) and the three big stacks dont have any verbal agreement but they kinda try and kill the small stack first, is it? thats just strategy, right?

Correct. However, tournaments are not the same thing as cash games, and in fact many strategies for tournaments are in a gray zone. It's okay to do, but not okay to discuss.

Wha?!? Soft play happens all the friggin' time between regulars in casinos* - especially smaller rooms where people know each other on a by-name basis. I've lost count of the times I've seen two guys who know each other check it down once it's head's up and the kid with the iPod is out of the pot.

I played live last night and watched it happen; players in a stud game got head's up and had their hole cards turned over before 7th street as the dealer quickly pitched the last two cards and chopped the pot. [I know that by all poker definitions I'm an old man. I discussed playing stud live ]

Sure, it seemed pretty obvious the two were going to split the pot - but it's the textbook definition of softplay. [And there's no way to guarantee from the board on 6th that anyone has a low.]

I don't suggest it's "right" - but to suggest that it doesn't happen is hogwash. More often than not it's passive soft-play or "friendly" soft-play, but call a spade a spade.

With regard to the OP's question -- it's only collusion or soft-play if the tacit agreement isn't in the best interests of both players. It's much akin to checking down a hand when a player is all-in. If you both do it because you've agreed to do it, then it's wrong -- as opposed to you both doing it because you've decided it's the best tactical decision to eliminate a player. If you and your accidental-ally try to raise out the third guy because your spidey-senses picked up on it as good play, then it's just that -- good play. If you go to the bathroom together and decide to do it, then it's collusion.

I don't disagree that it should be frowned upon, however.

*At least at low and mid-limits, and at least in nearly every casino I've ever played more than a night in.

Agree completely, as illustrated in my post above.

I was under the impression we were discussing home games.

What you describe is drastically different than what was posited in the OP, and different even still from what you described in your own home game.

Yes, some soft play does occur in the lower limits in casinos, usually among regulars. But it's out of fear of variance, not out of spite for a disliked third party. And while similar, checking it down isn't quite the same thing as targeted soft playing. Both are specifically against the rules in most casinos, but it's unfortunately rather difficult to enforce.

But again, absolutely nothing to do with the question at hand.

Geez, sorry, I'll try to keep a more laser-like focus...

I've - as others have - expressed not only what my general beliefs on softplay are, but tried to address his particular issue (see the final large paragraph of post #16)

If you don't find the rest of what I posted to be germane to the topic at hand, so be it...

I've seen some level of soft-play in nearly every venue I've played in - from kitchen table matchstick games to mid-stakes home and casino games - in all sorts of forms (intentional, unintentional, squeezes, checkdowns, passed money, one money, percentages, you name it). I believe it's something that you're going to just have to expect if you want to stay sane - and I believe it's something that was worth mentioning in the thread.

What I posted above was just the most recent example I had -- as it happened mere hours before I posted.

So, in short, I simply disagree with the first half of this (and agree with the second half).

I do respect your opinion to the contrary, however. I'm just providing another data point for the OP to add to his map of expectations.

I'm not trying to tell you that you're wrong -- I'm just sayin' I've seen different.

It's good to see you two back at it again after pfapfap's absence.

I'm not sure why you're so offended, really. Yes, it exists. No, it's not good. No, it's not really all THAT common (it exists in all forms, but it's a very slim minority of people who do it), and should not be seen as acceptable. It's mildly tolerated here and there, but is not to be encouraged. From what I can tell we generally agree on this.

He enjoys poking me with a stick. "That's not what we're talking about! WRAA!!"
I enjoy standing my ground. "What's this we stuff, paleface?"
Repeat ad nauseam.

I'm sorry it comes off that way, but I am not intending to poke.

I only soft-played once. And I regret it 15 years later. It was a small stakes mixed cash game with teenagers (Baseball and 5-Card Draw mainly). We played with those Red, White, and Blue chips you can buy at CVS. $0.25 Ante.

The hand I soft-played was a 5-Card Draw had where I raised pre-draw with Three 6s and got the usual 4 or 5 callers. I draw to my 4-of-a-Kind. My good friend's younger sister was playing with us that night. She drew to 3 Aces. I bet my Quads, she raised, and I only called. She sheepishly says, "3 Aces." I more sheepishly turn over my 4 Sixes. Since then, I don't soft-play. It's -EV. It's just bad business. I play to win, whether I'm playing in a home game, online, or in a casino.

I used to play with the same guys in Virginia before moving North. We had about 12 or 13 players and my wife asked to come - she can hold her own. Well we got down to 3 - me, my wife, and my buddy. The first hand I could, I moved in on her to show the other guys that I wasn't treating her any differently. After my wife knocked out my buddy, we chopped so we could start another game quicker.

In another game with the same guys, I've seen brothers felt each other. Fathers felt sons. Sons felt fathers. I prefer to play in a game where people play with integrity.

I soft-play only two players. It's not even really soft-playing more so than it's a mutual staying out of each others way. The thing is that everybody knows.