Links to other applications of treble damages in legal situations similar to this one? Also, how does this situation change if he made all this money in the pit?

Wrong..... What you can get is what matters!!!!

Expecting more than you have any hope of getting just because you "deserve" it, is just a recipe for a unhappy life....

Get what you can, bad mouth the ahole to the end of the world, and get on with life.

Now if this guy actually has any integrity and feels he owes you two, then maybe you can expect more but I wouldn't hold my breath.

PS Bad mouthing his character on here is not likely to increase his feeelings of "oweing you" even if it does make you happy in the short term. Stroking his ego(or whatever) and telling him how "you knew he wouldn't screw people and that you knew he had integrity" or such bs. That might get you more $$$. Yes, you deserve more, but such is life.

Lol, actually it does matter what I deserve because if mouth-breathing ******s like you keep thinking this way, more and more people are going to **** their backers. I didn't say it doesn't matter what we can get, only that you guys shouldn't worry about that because that part of it is our business. Also, I do not agree with your opinion that it is optimal to kiss ass and suck **** to get our money back.

hypertilt engaged

Bakes, Bond asked for peoples opinions on the matter. Jumping down peoples throats because they are not the opinions you agree with is kind of counterproductive. I understand that you don't want to set a precedent for the community that if you steal from your backers you can get off light but you have to understand that this is a really complex scenario and opinions are going to be polarized.

i agree with dw2006. The 'contract' you had with this guy did in no way entail the tournament he won nor any other avenue he could come across a lot of money. Assume he made a website that was now worth 200k, you're not entitled to 60% of that because he may or may not have started it up with your money. The fact that his source of income is outside the contract you had with him means you don't deserve that contract % of the income. You deserve treble or other punitive damages. I would think 3x what he stole from you would be fair.

do you guys have a way to get money from him if he tells you to f off when you ask for your share of the win?

Well I think this comes down to their original staking agreement, that we do not know. If the original agreement was for any poker he was playing be it online etc. then under that contract that they entered be it verball or otherwise he is still under the contract. He chose to not return any of their attempts to contact him so the contract was not dissolved I am assuming (again details of the contract matter).

Sure you could argue that they would'nt have agreed under the staking agreement to stake him in 1k events, but hes the one who was operating outside the agreement not them, also who knows he may have satty'd into the tournament which I assume would be fine under most staking agreements. Obviously if he made money in some other area unrelated to their agreement (the pits, other random business) they would not be entitled to the profits and would just be eligible for interest IMO, but the money he won was in online poker and he did'nt contact them and say "our arrangement is over I will pay you back +interest yada yada yada".

This is where you hire big guys to go have a 'little talk' with him.

Lets say I've paid for Julia Roberts to be wearing all the finest hooker gear as part of a 60/40 "staking" deal and she disappears before settling the amount I gave her, I'm gonna want my money back.
When I find out a month later that Richard Gere has given her $1million for a weekend I'm gonna feel like I'm owed 60% of that too.

I think once he runs off with your money like that, the staking deal is over (unless something in writing states otherwise). You are either still backing him with that money or he has stolen it from you- you can't have it both ways. In this case, the money was stolen, and everything regarding staking deals shouldn't apply.

The real question then becomes how much do you deserve if someone were to steal your money, gamble with it, and win a lot more. There's a good chance that there's been previous cases like this that have gone to court, and whatever the rulings were in those cases that's what the ruling should be in this case. (Of course, in those cases, the thief would have gone to prison as well, which is something that doesn't seem to apply here.)

As someone else has mentioned, it all depends on the terms of the original deal. If it was for all poker (his total BR) and there was no time limit, then you are due a fairly large amount.

However, if the terms are for specific limits, specific time periods etc. then you're probably due a lot less. Think of it like this - if someone stole your car, sold it, then went to vegas and won big using the proceeds, would you be owed the winnings?

lol at comparing this with stealing a car

Sec. 52-564. Treble damages for theft. Any person who steals any property of another, or knowingly receives and conceals stolen property, shall pay the owner treble his damages.


This is the law where I am from.

I agree with what everyone is saying, you guys are owed a lot here, that being said be careful about turning him down if he offers you only a piece of what you feel you're owed because you'll wanna get what you can while you can type thing too.

GL guys.

I don't think he owes more than what he took plus interest.

And yea, that makes it +EV to steal, but stealing is +EV pretty much always.


But yea he's a huge douchebag and you should hire a somoan to butt rape him once a year on the anniversary of his theft every year for the rest of his life.

ok, can you tell us what you think now?

Wow, that's a very unusual provision, not at all the norm. What state is that?

My advice in all similar situations like this potentially involving significant money is not to discuss it openly on a forum like this, you may damage your legal position by what you say here. I get into LV tomorrow, staying at the Rio, give me a call or shoot me a PM if you guys want to discuss this with a lawyer.

Personally I find it shocking that someone would do that to a backer.

This type of thing actually happens? So strange.



sheets

timex et al make good points and I'm rethinking my snap judgment, but "owes what he took" can't be right.

We're doing all of this in a hypothetical world where he wants to pay back (this business of caring what he should pay rather than what he will). But you can't ignore that at best his prior actions make it clear he's a deadbeat unless he gets a big score and then becomes an honest guy. So you can't treat it like eventually he'd pay back the 13k regardless of circumstances. Basically, he broke an agreement and stole 13k, and if he only ever pays back the small % of the time he wins 100k plus and you find out about it, you're getting back way less than 13k in ev. If he hadn't ignored all of your emails and was making a good-faith effort to show he would pay you back when he could, I'd feel differently.

The 3x damages thing seems ad hoc but I understand it and can believe it's the law in some places. It doesn't seem right to treat this as simple theft, though.

Let me ask this of the backers. Both Bond/Bakes w.r.t. this specific agreement, and in general. If a horses' entire bankroll at a site is included in an agreement (he doesn't have any of his own money mixed in), and he is supposed to play events up to a certain buyin, and he plays something way larger, what is the penalty? If the account is all the money he has, then "regardless of result he owes the backers the buyin amount" is unfair to the backers because it turns the arrangement into a higher variance situation than the backers were willing to accept. But anything else also gives one side a freeroll. It seems the backers should get the better end of the deal in this situation because the horse is the one who broke the rules. Is this possibility covered in contracts or just dealt with when it happens?

sheets!!!!!

Ok, the whole reason for entering into a staking arrangement in the MTT world is that it increases the chances of a lightning strike, such as the $1K Mansion MTT win, over what one individual player is going to achieve. It's not to help someone out, although it could be mutually beneficial in that respect. It's not just to get their money back, either. Personally, I don't understand how this much money can exchange hands without anything in writing, but that's just me.

I hardly think the staking arrangement is over. The player took the $, which is different than simply losing it on buy-ins. If he lost it in buy-ins, that makeup stands unless there is a mutual agreement between the parties I would think. However, as long as this guy's playing poker, it's on the stakers to forgive the debt. I don't see how the player can simply decide the debt is gone.

Just my 2 cents.

"owes"
"is entitled to"
"is legally responsible for"
"is morally obligated to...."

All of these phrases really make me giggle.

Oh to be young and naive again....

sheets

I might be being a moron, but I cant see a timeline on this

that thread was about 8 months ago? for the first couple of months u said it all went well, then the money was lost, so lets say 4 months ago is the last time you had contact from him? Theres no way on earth you deserve a % of this victory, I cant believe people can say that you did. The staking agreement was dissolved the day he lost all but $900 of your money and either lost the other $900 or didn't touch it. He should pay you back, and you work together to try and figure out how much expectation you lost on the lack of playing, and then get interest on that.. but I do not think there is any way you have a 60% claim on the $190k

All just my humble opinion of course.

lol@ Todd. just spell it: a-t-t-o-r-n-e-y

also lol@ Sheets. what is your actual opinion on the situation?

I agree with Timex fwiw. That works out pretty well, considering.

edited after Sheets latest reply: no further need to expound.

I would take the Samoan buttsechs/anniversary thing a lot farther, may he rest in peace!