our image is solid tag. villain is a decent aggressive player who's been very active at the FT. he's raised me bvb several times (i think he's raised every opportunity bvb), and i've responded with a pretty balanced frequency of flatting, reraising and folding.

i think turn is the most interesting street. effective stacks are about 80k on the turn with a pot size of 40k. what are the merits of shoving over his raise vs flatting?

(converter messed up the pot size so i put approximations)

Absolute/UB Cereus Hold'em, 1750/3500 350 ante (6 handed) - Absolute/UB Cereus Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

Hero (BB) ($103275)
UTG ($42988)
MP ($48797)
CO ($185738)
Button ($49545)
SB ($157657)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4, A
4 folds, SB bets $8100, Hero calls $4600

Flop: ($20000) A, Q, 6 (2 players)
SB bets $9900, Hero calls $9900

Turn: ($40000) 8 (2 players)
SB bets $21000, Hero calls $21000

River: ($81006) 8 (2 players)
SB checks,...

check river and nh

cant see how raising turn is profitable vs his calling range and there are no real draws to fear.

IMHO I guess we could shove the river because we might fold out some better aces... Villain has like never AQ/AK/A8/66/QQ/AA/8x here....

I think the entire hand up to river is wp standard...

SB checks,... What hand do you think we can get value from here ?

Your hand is truly a showdown value hand, I doubt many times we will get a check/call by worse and if we fire river we may put ourselves in a tough decision/spot vs a C/R...

INSTA check behind river


As far as turn, I cant see raising here. Again, do we get called by worse ? He most likely folds all worse and calls or reraises better only imhop...

no one likes betting really small? like 30k ish cus i think we have the best hand like always

Shove river. Wp everywhere else.

^^What worse hand calls that we aren't chopping with that can call a shove?

The pot has 80k and we have 65k left. How can we ever get c/r here? I hope u don't mean b/f 30-40k lol

I shove the river. The only aces that beat you are AQ and AK which shove the river first. If villain tries to be tricky with trips or better, more power to him. I shove and let him make a herofold with Ax or a herocall with a random Q.

I'm really torn on whether to shove river or not (rest of hand is well played), there really aren't any missed draws we can have so its not likely we'll ever have air here. That said, we pretty much always have the best hand (or at least a split) here so why not shove?

Doesn't matter. He could call with worse and he sometimes folds chop hands

You do realize that we also win $ when villain folds a hand he is chopping with?

Also, I've seen lots of herocalls with second pair or worse BvB. It's like playing HU .. ranges become wider and second pair suddenly is the nuts

misread stacksize, i guess i shove river then

The more i think about it, the more I like shoving the river. The hands that have you beat almost never check here and there is a very good chance that shoving gets an ace to fold in what would otherwise be a split pot.

Even though this is a B v B confrontation I'm not a huge fan of raising the turn...

On the river it seems like the only real benefit to betting is to fold out hands that you are chopping with, what hand worse than an ace do people expect to call? Even so, I guess it can't hurt to shove because it seems like a less <1% chance that he shows up with anything better...

the more I look at the math I have to agree with you now

I think the river overshove is sexy

Shoe

at the time and after posting this hand i thought river was a pretty standard check back. but i woke up thinking about this hand (sick life obv) and thinking that we should definitely shove the river and then i open the thread and find lots of people thinking along the same lines!

i think we should shove even if he never ever calls with worse or folds a chop or better (he's never folding an ace btw). if we're checking back here we become really easy to play against because our river betting range is so polarised. if we're not capable of shoving an ace then these guys have a really easy river decision vs us on future hands (not usually a big factor, but def is on UB because the player pool is much smaller). we need to have a balanced range on the river that includes bluffs, very strong hands like boats, and aces, because otherwise when we do shove in this spot, people who know how we play can rule out an ace, so it's going to make it much harder for us to bluff in this spot when we want to (and we should be wanting to do that with a really good frequency).

all that aside though, he may well look us up with a Q because he doesn't think we're capable of shoving an ace on this river, but i doubt he really has many queens in his range because he would likely check flop or turn with a queen, trying to get to showdown. he should probably be looking us up with a 6 on the river though (PPs aren't a big part of his range cos he's opening so wide) because our range is so polarised if we're checking back an ace by default, and so many draws missed.