It is 17,600 a round. I have an M of 13.5.

Do we shove 238K to win 17,600?

Do we 3 bet and call a shove from opponents behind us?

Do we 3 bet and call a 4 bet from raiser?

I think calling is bad option.

Thoughts?

PokerStars Game #46282825823: Tournament #318010925, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXII (4000/8000) - 2010/07/03 2:09:35 ET
Table '318010925 144' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: crbonz (849219 in chips)
Seat 2: engin7eer (919331 in chips)
Seat 3: hinda73 (611516 in chips)
Seat 4: g_train24 (371659 in chips)
Seat 5: abendigo (559365 in chips)
Seat 6: Birmy (238050 in chips)
Seat 7: adrenalin48 (253456 in chips)
Seat 9: Garry26 (235064 in chips)
crbonz: posts the ante 80
engin7eer: posts the ante 800
hinda73: posts the ante 800
g_train24: posts the ante 800
abendigo: posts the ante 800
Birmy: posts the ante 800
adrenalin48: posts the ante 800
Garry26: posts the ante 800
adrenalin48: posts small blind 4000
Garry26: posts big blind 8000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Birmy [Th Td]
crbonz: folds
engin7eer: folds
hinda73: folds
g_train24: folds
abendigo: raises 16000 to 24000

make it 61125 and never fold pre. guess you can fold post but its gonna have to be a sick-nasty flop

w/ M of 13.5 against LP min-raise PF i am probably playing TT to the death, or villain is folding a steal when i 3bet PF. but i make it more like 82K to indicate to him (and to blinds) seriousness of situation. ideally, i win pot here, but at least i have reasonable pair if LP gambles with A/10, K/10, 22+ and still slightly better than flipping against myriad of overs. if he 4bets PF i am calling ai. if he flats and shoves flop i am calling. if he flats and checks flop i am shoving.

shove. gives us widest range.

He must have something like AK or AQ(suited)

His winning odds are about 6 to 5. So he is about 6:5 underdog.

You should call, and chasing the set. If it doesn't come, you c/f.

this

wat

+1

Bottom line for me. I am always going broke here due to many factors. Best hand I had seen in 30 orbits. Maybe this should not be a factor but for me it is. We cannot be getting right set odds. Calling invites the BB. Overcards are likely to flop. What is it? With J-J one overcard should flop. 10-10 maybe there is a 60% chance overcard flops (guessing).

If I had been playing aggressively maybe I like shoving. I know that shoving looks widest and weakest. But if I had been playing passively which I had been maybe it is not best play.

I feel better about this play if I standard raised and called BB. I really hope to be on the good end of this once again in tourneys. Losing over and over again sucks my friends.


*********** # 333 **************
PokerStars Game #46282825823: Tournament #318010925, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXII (4000/8000) - 2010/07/03 2:09:35 ET
Table '318010925 144' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: crbonz (849219 in chips)
Seat 2: engin7eer (919331 in chips)
Seat 3: hinda73 (611516 in chips)
Seat 4: g_train24 (371659 in chips)
Seat 5: abendigo (559365 in chips)
Seat 6: Birmy (238050 in chips)
Seat 7: adrenalin48 (253456 in chips)
Seat 9: Garry26 (235064 in chips)
crbonz: posts the ante 800
engin7eer: posts the ante 800
hinda73: posts the ante 800
g_train24: posts the ante 800
abendigo: posts the ante 800
Birmy: posts the ante 800
adrenalin48: posts the ante 800
Garry26: posts the ante 800
adrenalin48: posts small blind 4000
Garry26: posts big blind 8000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Birmy [Th Td]
crbonz: folds
engin7eer: folds
hinda73: folds
g_train24: folds
abendigo: raises 16000 to 24000
Birmy: raises 213250 to 237250 and is all-in
adrenalin48: folds
Garry26: calls 226264 and is all-in
abendigo: folds
Uncalled bet (2986) returned to Birmy
*** FLOP *** [5d 9s Kh]
*** TURN *** [5d 9s Kh] [2s]
*** RIVER *** [5d 9s Kh 2s] [3s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Garry26: shows [Jd Jc] (a pair of Jacks)
Birmy: shows [Th Td] (a pair of Tens)
Garry26 collected 502928 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 502928 | Rake 0
Board [5d 9s Kh 2s 3s]
Seat 1: crbonz folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: engin7eer folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: hinda73 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: g_train24 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: abendigo folded before Flop
Seat 6: Birmy (button) showed [Th Td] and lost with a pair of Tens
Seat 7: adrenalin48 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: Garry26 (big blind) showed [Jd Jc] and won (502928) with a pair of Jacks

Shoving is standard here. I would rather stick it in then a 3b here.

I told you that shoving is bad.

But if I had 3 bet and BB folded his stack size is the same as mine. I could not fold. I would have put him on 99+ or AQ+. Basically, I am going broke anyways.

But the old adage of shoving gets all worse hands to fold and all better to call may come into play here. Although we are in late position and if I had 99+ or AQ+ and was the initial raiser who 3 bet I might just 4 bet all in.

Went broke and always will go broke here I believe. Seems like a cooler.

false. 3betting gives us a wider range.

Does shoving look weakest and presumably give us widest range or does a 3 bet gives us wider range?

And does the answer to this question differ depending on player type?

If I am passive and shove would someone consider me to have a wider range?

If I am passive and 3 bet would someone consider me to have a wider range?

If I am aggressive and shove would someone consider me to have a wider range?

If I am aggressive and 3 bet would someone consider me to have a wider range?

.

OK. Maybe what I heard and misstated was being first in pot and shoving all in looks weakest especially when you have 10 BB or less with A-A and don't want to reveal strength of hand. Shoving in this spot looks weakest.

However, and based on your thoughts re-shoving all in over the top of initial raiser looks like a stronger hand AS OPPOSED TO 3 betting which gives opponent a wider range (bluffs/air etc.).

I suppose most players won't re-shove all in with 3-4 offsuit but in position moreso opponents will 3 bet light.

The last thing I will add is am I really 3 betting light with that size stack on button? If I 3 bet and fold I still have some chips left but my M was 13.5 prior to hand (prior to my hypothetical 3 bet on button). It is a lot of chips to raise/fold for sure so why would someone 3 bet with that stack? Maybe players do 3 bet with that size stack trying to get steal hands to fold or average hands to fold from late position raisers.

I suppose I agree with you that 3 betting gives players a wider range but with certain stack sizes I am not sure that is always the case. Meaning, a 3 bet with a shallower stack certainly might show more strength than a reshove with a shallow stack IMO. Maybe I am wrong... Don't know.

Cooler hand. I jam this pretty much 99.9% of the time.

Calling pre basically leaves you praying the flop isn't threatening so you can continue the hand. Unfortunately, chances of that are pretty high with 16 big overs, meaning calling is a waste most often. 3-betting commits at a minimum 20% of your stack. If he 4-bets or bets the flop, can you really fold after committing such a huge amount?

Just shove, there's absolutely no other justifiable way to play this.

Shorty to suggest that there are no justifiable ways of playing this other than shoving while people have suggested that there are alternate lines with valid reasons is just ignorant

Just saying, shoving is best and I can't see how any other way of playing is better.

The appriopriate question is imo not whether you fold to a 4b but what method keeps your range wider since we are prolly calling anyway. I thought protential had a point when he said shoving makes our range wider but I think alot is depending on how you played and you said you played very passive. I think a shove is more appropriate here because of that. If you had been 3betting light you should have kept 3betting, if you didnt do that I'd say shoving gives us the widest range if you were passive. Dont know if this makes sense how I put it.

I can't see the M's


Poker Stars $3.00+$0.30 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t4000/t8000 Blinds + t800 - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: t849219 M = 46.15
UTG+1: t919331 M = 49.96
MP1: t611516 M = 33.23
MP2: t371659 M = 20.20
CO: t559365 M = 30.40
Hero (BTN): t238050 M = 12.94
SB: t253456 M = 13.77
BB: t235064 M = 12.78

Pre Flop: (t18400) Hero is BTN with T T
4 folds, CO raises to t24000, Hero raises to t237250 all in, 1 fold, BB calls t226264 all in, 1 fold

Flop: (t502928) 5 9 K (2 players - 2 are all in)

Turn: (t502928) 2 (2 players - 2 are all in)

River: (t502928) 3 (2 players - 2 are all in)

a 50+ BB stack opening the cutoff into three 30 BB stacks is a steal most of the time. Definitely shove.

If its a steal most of the time wouldnt we be more inclined to 3bet to give him the opportunity to 4bet shove some bluffs (Axs or small pairs) ? He will most likely flat your 3bet allmost never with garbage here anyway being OOP. Just wondering.

Just for the sakes of debating. Are you shoving 30BB with every hand in your resteal range?

This. Resteal-shoving with 30bb's allows him to call close to perfectly. A 3bet is better imo in this spot. And if you are 3betting some and shoving some, it's super exploitable. Give them the opportunity to spaz.