So at 5:45 in the morning I'm sitting at the final table where most players are tighter than teenage nuns. I more or less constantly steal the blinds and antes uncontested but things just aren't moving fast enough for me.

I get 3bet by a player that I know only 3bets very strong hands. But as I have been killing him with the button raises I figure there is a slim slim chance he is just taking a stand. So let's just agree my call is pretty damn terrible.

But once I call his bet on the flop I feel pretty certain that he is gonna shove on turn and I feel his bet on the flop almost seems too big to be for value. Should I just fold on the flop here?








I opted to ship over his c-bet.

Pre is horrible as you mentioned.

Obviously you can never fold pretty much the best flop for your hand once you get to that point. You have too much equity vs his range, money already in pot etc etc.

I agree with you about your play pre, especially if you've been able to open steal at will at the FT, and also since you're the second biggest stack at the table.

I'd make it more than a min-open from the SB in a BvB situation. Funnily enough the fact that villain didn't flat you're min-open when getting great odds IP indicates even more that he has a good hand.

You kinda have to go with your hand on this flop, but it's a terrible spot to put yourself in.

more pre, fold to 3b, gii now. should just shove the flop.

Fold pre. His range on flop has you crushed. Remember the guy is a nit at a final table where he 3bets then pot flop. Furthermore he could have jj which blocks your outs. Just a terrible play preflop. Probably best to admit your mistake on flop and fold. Getting it in here is awkward since you lose your great pressure stack and there are a couple of shorter stacks already.

More pre. Snapfold when he 3b. Shove flop.

I shoved over his cbet and he tanked then called and showed JJ.

At first I thought I did the right thing and most of you seem to agree. But considering how passive and tight the players were I'm still doubting it was wise to ship it on that flop.

I was back at 30bbs within minutes from just stealing the blinds and antes.

I appreciate the feedback lads!

I know shoving is the easy play but if you're extremely confident villain has overpair now, you basically have ~45% equity although there is plenty of dead money. If all the opponents are as tight as you say they are, maybe folding is better. Fortunately, you were able to steal your way up with 18BB, but I'm sure it would have been really easy to recover with 43BB and accumulating more.

I'm usually not in favor of passing up +EV spots, but final table is certainly different, especially against super tight players. This is when playing blind would be better than seeing your cards so you don't stack off with JJ or TT against their nuts.

people that allow you to run them over dont usually just start fighting back for no reason. PF is a def fold.

that sizing is usually indicative of OP's. i would say its very unlikely that a tight V would bet that much as a bluff OTF. it's a really gross spot, but you cant fold now.

this is not true. the reason is that youve been running them over. everyone has a different 'breaking point' consisting of a certain amount of hands or times youve bullied them and a certain point on the range of hands scale that they just wont fold.

that is their range by definition.

they're obv not folding 100% of their hands! but that'll much more often than not, still be a really tight range, very close to what they would shove if you just raised once every two orbits. tight players do not fight back light. they just wait for hands to fight back with.

2.2x pre
fold to 3-bet
gii now.

I say it again because most have a hard time listening and i got a real love for the game. Making a mistake preflop, then making a bigger mistake postflop by jamming flop wont make you money.

This is a 3bet pot. Guy potting that flop is like never gonna fold. His range is overpair, sets and huge draws. Do the math. Get better.

We have 37% equity vs Overpairs, sets and a few flush draws. He's obviously not folding, which means we need 38% equity to make it a +chip EV play. That's pretty close. Now that's giving him a tight range. Throw in a few bluffs and it doesn't look so bad.

It should be noted I agree we should have never got ourselves in this position, as we should have folded preflop.

no need for bluffs. just sets, 88, OP's and FD's here, with the most unlikely hand being the A7s. still, we have enough equity not to let this go.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.457% 39.48% 01.97% 15244 762.50 { Th8d }
Hand 1: 58.543% 56.57% 01.97% 21841 762.50 { 77+, AsKs, AsQs, AsJs, As7s, KsQs }

Nh.

No it's not

yeah I didn't have 8s or as many flush draws. Now throw in a few random bluffs and we look good.

Once we got to the flop gii is fine.

Mathematically I cannot find a fold here... and I didn't..
I figured there would only be one suited hand he could've had and that was AKs obv.

I did and the answer was call. But perhaps you meant 'do the math' as a metaphor?

Actually I meant both as a metaphor and the actual math.

His 3bet range is super small especially if he pots that flop. Clearly overprotecting and more like TT, JJ, QQ, KK and AA here. Maybe AKs, but I doubt it.

Furthermore if he has precisely JJ or TT he blocks out too. Then if we look at our stack and opponent stacks at final table, it's just not necessary to take a super high variance play here, because we made a huge preflop error. So yeah, you can actually talk yourself into shoving here, because we have odds bla di bla.

Btw, normally in different stages this might be a good play, because villains have a far wider 3bet range and lots of bluffs too on that flop, then it's a close but good play I guess to shove.

yeah this is just a big mistake that u got urself into postflop. If u ad folded things would of been easier , much essier, anyhow never folding otf , u do have outs and u have top pair.

+1

By folding pre we avoid situations like this one,where we are kind of priced in on that flop,but not to happy about it.So keep it simple and fold pre
As played *as i said* can´t fold OTF

Ok, can we please stop talking about the preflop call? OP already mentioned "let's agree that this call was terrible" so he obviously knows he should have folded. He's asking what to do afterwards.

Anyway, everyone seems to be obsessed over the mathematically correct play and not factoring in the intangible factors. Unless the math dictates that this is a gigantic, high-five the screen, super +EV play, you don't have to stack off here. I know I'm repeating myself but I don't believe in folding small edges most of the time. The final table (maybe even final 2) is the exception. Particularly, with very weaktight players, it's easy as hell to run them over and "wait for better spots," something I usually don't like saying.

I've folded AKo to a weak player's 3BB shove when it was 3-handed just to purposely keep grinding down the 2nd place player who had ~18BB and was clearly trying to ladder up. I passed up a pretty big +EV spot because bleeding off the other player was even better. The point is, while the math is certainly important, don't forget to play poker and factor in the intangibles.