My bad I am in the sb. Bb flatted the raise and utg had limp/called.

How many hands ahead of us are there that are limp/flatting pre? And of those hands, which villains are playing so passively, there has to be a % of those hands that we can get to fold with our line. BBs flat is probably the most concerning but he is short stacked and only has 7 bbs behind with 3 players to act.

This also seemed like pretty much the nut best flop for me to jam into without my hand having improved.

CQ that didnt answer my question. What folds out that beats us? Given they are all pretty short prob very few. If they do fold we were ahead anyway.
Also there are 4 people you have to get through, just dont think ur gonna get 4 folds enough.

When ur called ur gonna have what about 25% equity at best?

Also if they are passive they may well check a small pair 5 way and you see a free turn.
I dont think its gonna happen that often (as some will have something), but seems as likely at least as getting all the droolers to fold a pair.

buffy, I'm not sure what you are trying to argue.

Are you saying better hands need to fold for the shove to be +EV? Are you saying you should c/c? c/f?

I am saying ch/f, ur shoving as a bluff but nearly always being called.

Also one thing about checking is that if we do check and somehow see a turn. If we do hit our A/k we are likey to get paid off from worse Aces/kings as these are gonna be in at least on of the callers ranges if not more

I think it's close. Assuming only one caller and 25% equity when called, you need folds 12% of the time.

Thing is though, if they fold though (12%, i trust u on the math ) you were ahead anyway as u have the best unpaired hand?

I cant really see a pair of some sort folding here given how short everyone is.

That's not the point, unless you are c/c as a bluff catcher. If your alternative to shoving is to check fold, then the relative strength of your hand is irrelevant.

I'm not really arguing with you either. Because there are more factors here than can be summed up by the simple math I did.

- Like you said, they could check back the flop (although you have to fade a bunch of outs if your hand is good).
- You could some times, given how short every one is, get called by worse.
- You could get called in more than one spot (reduces ur equity probably, but better price)

and probably more than I can think of now...been studying for 12 days straight and my brain is getting a little fried.

I disagree with quite a lot of this.

I think its a pretty big stretch to think we will often be called by worse very often.
U guys have a lot more live experience than I. But i see players never folding a pair (cos they put u on AK lol) but not calling with AQ here

Also i dont think people are gonna try and bluff this pot 5 way. If we think someone is then check call is far superior than shoving.

The essence of it is I just dont see why you would shove a flop 5 way into a bunch if droolers who are short with AK here. Seems like burning $

What range do you shove on this flop Jamie?

well this is a little frustrating, because everything you went on to "disagree with" was something I've never said.

I don't mind flop shove. Good price, looks strong, really only gets looked up by Tx some % 77-99 depending on guy/position and if they raise pre. Sets maybe, but if stacks are short we don't see 22-33 as much.

I def think better hands can fold here. If these guys are bad enough to flat 40-50% of their stack set mining pre then they're certainly capable of folding a ton of flops, no? No one has JJ+ here, TT is super rare given pre flop inaction, and 22-33 is probably too bad to be in a lot of villains ranges here. 2 pair never shows up. The only thing we have to worry about is Tx holdings and hero calls from 44-99, but I still think those hands can find folds and even if we get called, I almost always have ok equity vs what's calling me.

22 and 33 are definitely in the two limpers range. I don't see the bad player ever folding a worse hand on the flop. The shove is probably fine(especially if you've been playing tight) but you'll more than likely get called by 44-99 by the 2 limpers when they have those hands.

I'd raise more pre(to 80). Ak sucks oop multiway as you end up praying you are good or check/folding most flops. Maybe the game is tighter than some of your previous hands but from the sounds of it a raise to 60 is never taking it down pre.

That particular game was tighter than usual with all the old nits to my left. Probably 1/5th of all hands had raised pre during my time there. Usually the game is loose and spewy.

ask yourself what range you cbet in this spot and there's your answer. i like it CQ

I mean I'm not cbetting here with anything thinner than this. Maybe AQs? But given the scenario this cbet of mine is for value 90% of the time. I don't really think its exploitable if I only cbet with made hands here, but I also am happy with cbetting a very narrow range of non made hands as well.

i think it's EXTREMELY exploitable, but you are most likely never going to get exploited by anyone you play against.

i make pretty much all my money from spots exactly like this

anywho, results?!

Yeah that's what I mean, its exploitable if I id only do X but there's really no one in these games who is paying enough attention and capable enough to exploit it. Even if that were the case, the nature of this particular limit makes exploiting perhaps more difficult.

Results: got called by 3 of the 4 players. Bb called his last 7bbs with 99. Utg who limp called had ATo and called his last ~7 bbs, cutoff tank/folded T9, and BTN called with A5 hoping to hit his gutshot. I ran like Jesus though so the board ran J turn Q river and I scoop it.

Sorry posting from my phone and prob not clear.

Will post properly later

I'd just shove pf.
Really hate to get in this spot with 30bb stacks. If they are bad enough to call here pf, I'm zure they're not folding anything half decent postflop.
Plus I think they always like to put you on AK to have a reason to call.
I'd rather shove pf then c/f flop, but I also do not like to shove the flop.

We would be shoving like 6x pot PF. I don't hate it but it let's villains play closer to perfect than I would like

this 100x.

yea it doesn't matter dead money can get called by worse we have pot odds to flip against TT or whatever.

play some NL CAP online for practice imo.

If they're calling our pre flop shove or raise pre/jam flop line with nearly the same range/frequency, I'm thinking it may be more +EV to put in a smaller amount (instead of a 30bb jam) and jam the rest when we improve?

Additionally since half the people here for whatever reason are convinced that villains always think we have AK in my spot, the preflop over shove only narrows my range further down to AK and as pointed out, let's villains make easier decisions/closer to correctly. I'm not over jamming QQ+ pre in that spot ever so I'm turning my hand face up.