He's obviously saying you're no better than a random, ssnyc . j/k. Anyways, I believe that most players get very intense about protecting their strong hands on this type of board, so I would imagine a turn shove from 65, JsJx, or 55, the main hands you can prob have a boat with on river. Shoving turn is more valuable than sometimes allowing villain a river fold when he has a mid-weak 2-way hand he would have called with (Like As6x) or a draw that you can price out. This discussion can't go much farther than "I prob. have best hand, villain will call with worse to his detriment, shove chips in", can it? ssnyc should never have a boat here against a random, it'd be leaving too much money on the table. A goodly amount of randoms shouldn't have one either, but many will get MUBS here with 65 thinking of the many ways their hand can lose rather than its winning potential.

But villain is a random so to him you are a random so determining why you in particular can't have a boat isn't very useful. And that still assumes that you never get FPS with monsters, which is unlikely as everyone suffers from FPS from time to time.

c/c river

explained at length why I hate c/c river here...now tell me why you want to

b/f seems better than c/c as we are definintely getting freerolled by c/c I think (still unsure of your shove though ).

stacks don't work for bet fold

You can make it work, just bet small enough.

pot is 2100...he has 1300 left...

what value hands would I lead for 500 here?

You are correct, thought stacks were your stack. Shove is def better than c/c, only other possibility is c/f, but who wants to do that?

I mean, I think that I agree that it's either crai ott or fold ott... If you crai you might still get some action from drawy hands, even if they have decent equity you profit some. If you shove otr no hand that was drawing will call and you only get action from better hands IMO... Doubt he is calling with KsQx otr. Also if you choose to fold (which is defensible IMO) you avoid this kind of sticky situation.

Now that we're otr... I want to c/f but I feel there's so much overlay that foldin is bad, but I don't know what hand he shoves otr with that we beat, and with his line I'm majorly surprised if he checks behind, and in that case shoving is best IMO...

This is just my two cents. This hand is pretty ridiculous and hard to play IMO... as made obvious by the fact that several regs seem to disagree

mayb it doesn't even matter what you do on the river because it goes ai anyways... Sickening thought

edit: I will say that I usually 3bet this pre, simply cause I don't want to play a multiway pot oop with a strong hand like this. If it narrows the number of callers, mission accomplished, and it narrows the range of any callers which makes our life slight easier otf

Hm, pretty sure I'd call with any queen. Even Q5.

Actually, with only 1300 behind, you're probably right... once he gets to that spot it's correct to just call it down

Folding a flush there is total LOL