so I usually play my draws uber fast but with no success so I tried an alternate line

villan is definitely creative....he raised UTG and I flatted and I floated a C bet on an A XX flop...he checked...I bet turn and he called and checked the river with AK so an Ace is in his range still

we ok with this?

Poker Stars $50+$5 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t15/t30 Blinds - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

knugerz (UTG): t5510 M = 122.44
Hero (MP): t3330 M = 74
MMXCMXD (CO): t2910 M = 64.67
pheal (BTN): t5550 M = 123.33
Rounder_66 (SB): t3165 M = 70.33
crazy1c (BB): t2935 M = 65.22

Pre Flop: (t45) Hero is MP with A 6
knugerz raises to t60, Hero calls t60, MMXCMXD calls t60, 2 folds, crazy1c calls t30

Flop: (t255) A 7 4 (4 players)
crazy1c checks, knugerz bets t180, Hero calls t180, MMXCMXD folds, crazy1c folds

Turn: (t615) 4 (2 players)
knugerz checks, Hero checks

River: (t615) 8 (2 players)
knugerz bets t120, Hero calls t120

dont really know why you wouldnt bet turn?

Flop is good. With our draw, our hand doesn't need to be protected by turning it into a semibluff

Turn: Given how he's played a strong flopped top pair OOP, I think checking back turn is a good plan. Betting turn often betrays our hand and likely prevents getting value from his 88-KK later in the hand, though their outs have doubled. Also, we need not worry about protecting against a draw, so all signs point to a check.

On river, you're unlikely to be called by worse if you raise, so the call there is fine too.

you think the 120 on the river is better than the 400 or so we could have got on turn plus w/e he could have called on river aswell?

why? Am I protecting? My read gives him the potential to have better so not sure I want to value bet and bloat the pot here...

there are infinitely more combos of hands you beat than hands you're behind on turn and if he did have Ax by betting turn you are going to get a massive amount more out of him if you do in fact hit your flush as it is better disguised.

i.e. assuming range is 88-kk and AJ+ by betting turn you get more value from the pairs and a chance of much higher value from the Ax hands that beat you if you hit, if you miss then the river is a shutdown but that is fine as you werent going to fold any river anyway.

but...I have already been seen betting air in the exact same scenario...do we have enough equity on the turn to deal with a C/R?

the c/r is the only downside to betting turn but unless he has AA or 77 i don't see him doing it. is he really c/r'ing AK here? it is still by far the best line imo.

nh well played glad you started listening to me

I think I like it. Will you continue to play big draws like this in position or only against this type of villain?

I usually play them fast...get called down and brick so just testing different lines

it's early, passive line ftw

Just because we beat a ton more hands doesn't mean we should bet. The obvious case is if villain will play "perfectly" against us, folding all we beat and making us draw to our detriment when we are behind. Also, don't forget to think of possibly inducing a 5th street bluff from a hopeless hand.

For your range of 88-KK and AJ+ :This makes some sense, but I'm not sure if it's enough. We have shown ourselves to have floated & bluffed IP on an Axx board, so 88-KK may make one call, and your prospective range of his that may call turn is decent, given he is UTG (This is 36 combos 88-KK, 24 combos AJ+). However, the assumption that he will have these hands in their mathematical frequencies and call with all of them is quite invalid, based on this list of points.

• Villain willingly bet into this board in a 4-way pot on an A high two flush board.
• We called with 2 players behind us, indicating strength as well. In the hand where we floated, we likely were HU, so it is different, if villain even remembers the hand.

The idea that we will win more chips from the Ax hands when we suck out is also not fully supportable. It sounds like you're OK with putting in chips as a 4 to 1 dog and likely not getting the implied odds necessary against this passive opponent.

On balance, checking: Gives us a free card & cheaper showdown, induces bluffs, may induce a river call from 88-KK.

Betting: Prevents the free card for the opponent (not much gain) and for us (A loss when behind.). Protects our hand against 88-KK (2 outers, not that much of a win), charges us to draw likely without implied odds. Stops a bluff (Another loss)

All signs point to checking turn, so that's what I do.

Thamel makes some really going points and I def agree with calling flop but there are draws that will call turn that are drawing dead, villain knows hero can float meaning he can call with TT-KK some of the time and there are enough draws in hero's range for villain to barrel with the ace this time rather than checking the turn

Obviously there are times when you need to be checking when you know you're ahead if they are going to fold a bunch of whatyou beat but there is virtually nothing he is folding on the turn, precisely BECAUSE we've been seen to bet light here. He doesnt fold anything, assuming his UTG range is what it 'should' be.

Also it is physically impossible to play 'perfectly' in the sense you mention, which is why we use ranges. (Not to mention V is bad)

When UTG raises and flop is A47 I would expect him to bet like 95%, if it came like AQJ then obviously he is checking alot of the above mentioned range but on this flop he is betting all of it. Theres no indication that anyone has a good Ace and if he does have the underpair he is quite happy to take it down.
I don't really think this is an issue at all, as far as villain is concerned its weak, it looks like he's a pretty poor player anyway so probably isnt even considering the players behind.
Obviously if his range was purely Ax (that beats us) I'm not advocating putting chips and 'hoping to hit'. But we are definitely ahead of his range here, obviously with any range we have to be behind some hands so youre in danger of putting chips in behind.

In terms of the implied odds, its not necessary to work them out in this case but its not even far off, we can overbet the river and he still calls all of his Ax hands because the flush is less likely to the fishy V because we bet turn instead of checking it. Most likely flush line to a fish is to:flat flop, check turn, raise river. If we flat flop, bet turn, raise river its not a likely flush line. (Which is obviously true, if we didnt have TP aswell we wouldnt be taking this line) The idea that we have AcXc probably wont even enter his mind.

What is he ever bluffing river with? The value we lose from missed light value bets and (?) bluffs is equal or less than the value we get from the turn so I don't get this.

You lose so much value by checking turn. It's too cautious. It's like when ppl c/c river in cases where its crazy not to bet even though you can be behind. The benefit grossly outweighs the cost.

PS: I sound aggressive but I'm not, just trying to explain..

I fold pre and bet turn as played, cause some people (myself included) hate folding and if called you have outs.

IF we DO bet turn and get called. do we check back river?

do we call a river bet?

what's the best line here?

another thing i don't really get is why do you think his range is so wide?! He min raised UTG. for all i know [ i don't play that high [ this is very very likely a pair. even AA.

So when he's checking the turn, in my mind some bells ring [ the board doubled his set is now a boat ].

Given all that, i just want to see a cheap showdown at the moment. PLUS it's too early to go aggresive!

OUT of curioisty ss, what did he have?

the other problem with betting turn is that is bloats the pot...

if he calls the bet he can lead river bigger with the bigger pot

If I bet and he calls I am 100% checking back river

If I check back turn and he checks river I am bet folding

If I bet and he calls and then he leads river I am pretty sick and it is soul read time but prob a fold

i bet 1$ on JJ-KK

All of this obviously entirely depends on what the river card is, so its all hypothetical but I would say there isn't much that he c/c turn and then leads river (and you would always be behind unless its like Kc maybe so EZ fold).

Another point is that if you're going to play raggy suited aces like this you need to be winning a big pot when you make the flush otherwise its pretty spew. This doesnt necessarily mean getting over-aggro on the flop but you need to set up the hand in a way that it gives you the opportunity to win a big one.

ok I agree and I am a huge proponent of playing draws fast (most times too fast) but...I think given that we are in position here and that our read is that we can have both the best draw and some showdown value makes it a better time to pot control

I mean if we bet turn and he C/R what do we do?

Also if we do bet and get called we are folding to a river bet? I think that is correct but kinda sucks to take that line with TP here and turn it into a semi bluff

I think my overall point is that with position vs this villan pot control is good option with our hand

neither line is wrong or bad imo, but the extra value to be had makes the bet worthwhile. obviously it sucks if we are c/r on turn but as a general rule it is better to approach a hand looking to get max value when we are ahead (both on the current street and on further streets), not being scared to lose or being put in a tough spot because its not going to happen very often.

the problem comes when ppl cant fold when it turns out they are obviously behind, for this kind of player a more cautious approach is better but i think you can cope.

nh, raising flop serves no purpose and checking the turn is std.

i'm ok with both ways, but I think betting turn sets us up for a nice pot if we hit our flush on the river. We do have position....

i would strongly advise not flatting a minraise in this spot i prefer playing for the direct odds value and bump this up pre vs tight tables and foldng vs Lags

flatting the flop is fine as played

my god PLEASE bet the turn -- showdown value + FE, baby