Poker Stars $4.00+$0.40 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t75/t150 Blinds - 8 players
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked

SB: t3540
BB: t1330
UTG: t2245
UTG+1: t4250
MP1: t2875
MP2: t1770
CO: t735
Hero (BTN): t1860

Pre Flop: Hero is BTN with 4 5
UTG calls t150, 4 folds, Hero raises to t500, 2 folds, UTG calls t350

Flop: (t1225) Q 4 A (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero?

Standard shove?

Villain is very tight.

Also, I had recently seen a hand where he raised pf, then check/folded the flop w/ no c-bet.

Other than that, no reads. But I had gotten a phone call at the time too, so my thinking was simplified: steal against a consistently tight field. I didn't think about his holdings very in depth at all.

"Don't play this hand when you're on the f***ing phone is also an acceptable answer" if that's what I should hear

Anyway, seems like this might be standard steal attempt/shove with ~10BB, but it's mostly the weakness of my hand that led me to post for discussion/confirmation/flaming

Any and all thoughts much appreciated.

Fold pf. UTG limper is not the time to be attempting a steal. As played, yeah, i think you have to shove.

Of course you shove here. PF is just obviously terrible, but now that you're here you have to follow through.

If for no other reason, I think it was to drill this fact into my head that I posted the hand.

Had been reading up on general MTT strategy, so I had the "Middle Stages = Steal Blinds, especially from tight players and limpers" mantra echoing into my head, so I was trying to force myself to practice this through far looser play than I'm used to.

But it sounds like I clearly took it too far here?

I really think being on the phone with a friend hurt me here too. Subconscious machismo kicked in.

Apart from that though, was the steal attempt bad because of what I *held* or just because the limper was a tight player limping UTG?

Say someone had limped in middle or late position, is this still a bad play?

Basically, with ~10 BBs, should I not be trying to "steal", but rather looking for spots to shove pf?

etc etc. There are some general lessons I think I can learn here beyond the fact that it was a dumb move in this specific case, and they mostly have to do with the balance between playing stacks/stages vs. the cards in front of you...

Yup. Don't force it just because you read about it.

The steal attempt was mostly bad because of the tight player UTG but is made worse because of your stack size. His position/playing style should tell you he has a pretty decent hand -- and will not be inclined to fold to a raise from the BTN. Your stack size further exacerbates things because (1) any chips you lose here will seriously affect your ability to be successful in the future and (2) you do not have enough chips back to scare anyone (particularly the SB).


Yes, given your stack size. Now, if you had about 30bb's AND the limp came from one places to your right AND the limper was weak then a steal attempt might be in order, but I generally only make steal attempts when I am the first to enter the pot (if you're reading a lot, you might recall the "gap concept").

Bingo.

Thanks for the reply Lonewolf, very helpful. The nice thing about the $4 180s is they provide an opportunity to practice new ideas (though with the admitted downside of the practice often being against bad players).

Mostly what you said makes sense to me, a couple questions though:

How does the "gap concept" apply to re-raising? The extent of my knowledge of the gap concept is that it takes a stronger hand to call than it does to bet/raise. But by that logic, couldn't you argue that it takes a stronger hand to call pf than it does to re-steal?

e.g. Player A limps, I steal (can do w/ weaker hand cause I'm raising), or
Player A raises, I shove (can do w/ weaker hand cause I'm raising).

Basically I understand the concept when it comes to simply betting and calling, but how does it translate to RE-raising?

Hope that makes sense, I'm trying to articulate a rather nebulous confusion in my brain...


Basic question I haven't yet taken the time to dig up a good answer to: what range am I looking to shove with here? My best guess: something like A9+, 77+ ?

Thanks again. Busy life has kept me off the poker wagon for awhile, and everyone here at 2+2 always makes it fun to jump back on.

I generally take the gap concept to mean "tighten up when someone else has entered the pot. (at least tighter than in a cash game)" You are right, of course, to say that the gap concept works in your favor towards stealing a pot against a single limper -- provided the villain is familiar with the gap concept. However, when I was invoking the gap concept earlier, what I meant was that YOU should probably tighten up against the tight limper and not try a steal, which I generally regard as a loose play.

This all depends on your position and the action before you. If you're just talking about this specific case with the UTG limper then I would have a pretty tight shoving range because of your read that he is tight. I would say 88+, AJo+, KQs, QJs. I would be more inclined to shove with the suited connectors than AJo because I am putting a tight UTG limper on either a hand that he is scared to raise with like {AT, AJ, AQ, 77} or a monster, and in either case, you want to have a lot of outs.

Fold preflop. As played c/fold. This A makes up a tremedously large part of his range if he's tight. The other part is pairs that he might fold to the Ace if you shove, or might decide to look you up depending on you're image to him at the current time. I'd rather just c/f and wait for a better spot to get my money in.

But I have a heavy hand when it comes to c-betting so I might even c-bet like 1/2 the pot then fold w/ my remaining 750-800 chips still intact. Most people wouldn't advise that kinda play online, but I relly don't care, because it works for me.

WHY GOD WHY did we spew so badly pre...please make it stop and make the room spin less

lol. i deserved that. i really did.

I must have been feeling nostalgic for my donk days...

As important as the shoving range you have, take note on the players at your table. Find out who has folded over easily. Don't shove with garbage on people who have had their **** stolen frequently, etc. When left with very few blinds left, knowing who to push on is as important as what you push with.