we have reads, you might just be really bad at reading or a really bad troll. i just lost the dumb pokerstove but against a bunch of draws and a bunch of hands that we crush and a couple hands that we're almost dead against we have like 60% still which is going to be enough in this spot, and if it isn't then we should be checking back the flop alot of the time imo

While there are random 2 pairs and sets in his range, the majority of his range is FD/SD, which as a fish if you shove he actually might fold (which should never happen) a good amount here and assigning a proper stove range your 55/45... so shovel and gl

We have reads that he`s aggro fish who`s opening and callnig a lot. Not a word about his aggression tendencies w/o initiative.

And you must be blind, I`ve done the math above, including all garbage he could have there, which gives us 57%.

Still, the question is not about can he have rubbish or not, it`s about ICM influence on our decision at the spot on FT.

And I question why are you guys want to release all the chips, when his range can be strong and we have just a bluffcatcher (and BDNFD).

And the leader of mankind - Isux, proudly answered it`s bc V`s range "can easily be" not that strong.....wtf is that.... dumbiest answer ever....

we dont have a bdfd = more draws where he only has 9 outs in his range = ~37% per = much higher equity = we can easily be way ahead. You really need to try to stop picking a fight with me, you sound nonsensical at every opportunity possible.

Who said he`s gonna c/raise that draws to that sizing?

who said he's gonna c/r made hands to that sizing?

b/f seems so wrong because we have essentially turned tptk into a bluff which cant be right. However getting it seems semi-spewy considering ICM. And checking it back otf seems somewhat results oriented.

this hand is actually a legitimate interesting spot where I wish OP's reads were a little better but if I understand that the guy flats a ton pre and is aggro post then I dont think I find a fold.

That`s absolutely right, Chuck.
Esp if we`re talking about mid-stage.

It seems that`s why it`s a thread -- it`s a FO FT where OP is C/L-ing and have 50 bb. And look at other stacks.

B/f-ing you save very healthy stack and avoid some crappy spot vs some donk, who can be nutted.

One more consideration is why would V (even donkey) raise his draws to that sizing. If hero flats they`d have PSB left ott and if turn bricks V would have jam w/ very little equity or give-up in a very good pot.

I think V is much more likely to protect his value hands w/ that move, providing OP "bad price" for his possible draws.

[QUOTE=Elephants_pride;31914335] Alright. let`s assume 70% of times we 57% of equity and other 30% - 19%./QUOTE]

wow

I mean in order to construct a valid range for some fish like this we gotta include at least some 109 combos, some 8x other Qx combos (u include Q8 but omit QJ Q10 Q9).. it may be an ICM fold I'm not really sure I just know ingame id never fold this to a guy as described he shows up with a lot more Qx and draws than he does huge made hands with this sizing

Do people rlly pay you 100/h for coaching?

/thread


cmon guys

you probably should expand on your comment when you make such an insult. As is you just look like an a**hole especially when my advice is correct. I've been coaching for over a year and not once have any negative feedback. I offer money back guaranteed for anyone that doesn't feel my coaching was worth what they paid. This has yet to happen.

So all good regs itt are never folding, all the randoms/trolls can't fold faster. What's the dilemma?

Can't see a fold, villain definitely has worse Qx in his range (and AQ).
ICM does matter for sure but a few people seem to just be listing it as a reason without actually understanding it..
fail in understanding what a range is itt, hint- if you think he is more likely to do this with certain hands then just reduce the number of combos on stove. e.g. if you think he ALWAYS plays 66/88 like this, leave 66/88 as they are, but if you think he only does this with KJs/o sometimes, get rid of some of the combos 4

also just a quick other thing to talk "b/f seems so wrong because we have essentially turned tptk into a bluff"
this is untrue and i'm not saying the poster himself doesn't understand this but other readers may not so bet/folding a strong made hand doesn't mean we turned it into a bluff. extreme example if is we KNOW a specific villain is a huge calling station and ONLY raises the nuts, we can bet/fold middle set or any value hand worse. we expect to get called by a LOT of worse hands which makes betting pretty clear (for value) but when raised, we can fold because we are behind the range. in this actual hand i don't fold, just talking about the concept. it's the same reason we can 3b/f as the most profitable line with hands like AK AQ AJ KQ TT JJ whatever sometimes vs. specific villains, contrary to what seems to be popular belief.

Given reads I'm not folding here, given texture I probably just shove. Not sure what's the discussion about since we have a villain clearly overplaying his hands (and playing too many of them), this is as good as it can get.

Getting back to this hand in this spot b/f here in position is turning our hand into a bluff and it is terrible here. Obv there are spots to b/f for value and I post that advice all the time. But doing it here seems really really bad.

I wouldn't care about ICM here really . Top 3 are good payouts , maybe even just top 2 . Difference between 8th and 5th isn't going to be v.much comparatively . Trouble is if you make big folds because of icm then after a while you won't have icm to worry about because you'll be sitting 6/6 with nothing to lose . Rather try to get a stack at this point than even worry about it . If you and villain were on 250k each and everyone else is <100k then it's a different story

Aggro fish with weird betsizing where you hit a great flop for your hand = get your chips in imo . I'd prob just call and hope he barrels turn and then put him allin . Obv if he checks turn I'm betting pretty big close to pot because I don't want to give him any sort of implied odds if he's on a draw

there are anough combo draws in his BB flatting range that I think we have to get the chips in here

if you have enough hands look at his c/r flop stats, if 12% or under, you can make a pretty confident fold, if in the 20s or higher get it in

I would say if that is not the case then his c/r range is so tight it is an easy b/f on the flop. Why check and call down two streets when behind if he is stationy but will only c/r when he is ahead?