Asking players to not use Sharkscope is only the first step of our enforcement efforts.

Forthcoming efforts include trying to stop datamining. I can confirm that we are willing and able to properly combat datamining. I agree that it is currently a problem, and that's why we're in the process of rewriting one of the most sensitive aspects of our services - our hand history process.

Our integrity is the very basis of our business, and the key foundation stone for our integrity is the confidence that every hand is recorded for posterity - allowing people who suspect something wrong (whether it be concerns about random shuffling, collusion, whatever) to independently verify the facts of the matter.

We are therefore very careful before fiddling with this crucial building block - we don't want to stuff it up and cause much greater damage than datamining causes in the first place.
This will end with the rest of our forthcoming anti-datamining enhancements.
We'd rather receive 40 emails a day, because we have no way of verifying the quality of your statistical evidence, and wouldn't want to let people who are breaking the rules to get away with it.

I'm completely satisfied. People berating the casual players with SS stats is a serious problem that cuts into all of our bottom lines. As long as they aren't going to go overboard and do stuff like snoop our browsing history or track us down here for mentioning it, works for me.

Ban anyone who brings up SS at the table for life I say! Man that would be sweet.

MJ

I'm confused. Looking up info on Sharkscope has nothing to do with hand histories? Isn't it Sit 'n Go results?

I fully agree that datamining hand histories should be stopped. I'm not sold on the results idea. There are open databases for live play equivalent to OPR for online play.

I will stop using Sharkscope, as I've been asked to. I guess I want to get the certainty that others will do so too. I don't have that right now. There seem to be many backdoors available for those that aren't even that computer illiterate (eg. 2nd computer / connection etc.) That's my concern.

I believe the sole issue with sharkscope is that even when you email them asking to opt out, they still display your # of games played and ROI to paying members (but not free searches). This is the difference between OPR and sharkscope, as if you opt out with OPR, such information isn't displayed. I don't see any other difference between the two.

edit - pm was addressed, ty MJ

http://cakepoker.com/Help/Faq.aspx

''My Account
I would like to play under different names, can I have more than one account?

Each player is only permitted one account. Please note that Cake Poker allows you the ability to change your Poker Nickname every 7 days at your discretion. ''

Cake allows a change of name on a regular basis, I don't accept the notion that online poker should resemble B+M poker.. it just isnt the same thing.

This solution just seems absolutely straight forward and would solve the problem at source?

Obviously some kind of monitoring is important and as the STT forum has recently been reminded people are able to cheat on an ongoing basis... however making your customers feel like they are being watched isn't good.

Based on this rationality can we presume that Stars is now going to also prohibit players from observing games and/or viewing the tournament summaries (within the client) of games they did not play in?

This policy is bs and seems to me like it's being enforced simply because Stars is concerned about losing players being made aware of their losses (either via the chat box or by accessing the site themselves). There are so many players (live and online) that do not keep track of their losses... Stars doesn't want these players to be able to access this information in a convenient way eye-em-oh.

Now people see in the list that this is prohibited. "Hmmm, what's this sharkscope? I think I'll google it... sharkscope.com eh... Oh wow, I've lost thousands of dollars playing SNGs! Maybe I should stop playing them- wait, what's this email from PS??? I'm banned?!?!"

To Pokerstars rep,

You stated that the pokerstars client does not have access to browser history. And then you say that you are able to detect use of the sharkscope website. These statements contradict. Please explain.

Great - glad you like it. We really have no interest in your browsing history, so you can rest safely in that regard.

As a long-time Sit & Go Tournament player myself, that was my initial preference

True - but they're just different sides of the same coin.
Yep - and we want to have a similar situation. We're fine with a list of wins, or similar. We don't want people to be able to ascertain that players have a 11% ROI, or have lost $2,483.13 playing Sit & Go Tournaments.
These are entirely legitimate concerns, and precisely why we're taking action on this side of things as well.
This is not the *sole* reason, but it certainly contributes to our perception of the business.
The other difference - and this currently entirely behind the scenes and is one part of our broader policy on the issues - is that OPR have agreed to participate in an automated opt-out process entirely contained within the PokerStars client.
No. In live poker, it's not unusual or unreasonable to rail a game or look up the results from a particular tournament. I know I've done it myself, and this is pretty common.

This is why:

a) We'll continue to allow observers; and

b) Sites such as OPR and others will continue be able to provide this information.
This is not right. Any player is welcome to write to us and we'll give them a fully itemised list of their deposits and withdrawals. We think that this is a pretty important function, and I know many people take advantage of this service for a whole variety of reasons.

I'm finishing up here at work now, but I'll keep an eye on this thread overnight (my time) and tomorrow. As always, if you have a specific query, please feel free to email us.

Sincerely,

Michael J
PokerStars Game Security Team

personaly I've wanted SS and the other sites banned since the first time I saw someone else tell a fish exactly how much they had lost and how horrible they were after taking a beat. Maybe I've seen alot more of it playing MTT's than you guys see in sng's, but I know I've seen it enough in both to hate it and the sites that make it possible. A casual player doesn't mind losing money at poker. They expect to spend money on thier hobby. But noone tolerates being humiliated and sticks around. Thats exactly what I see happening over and over when the wrong someone has access to others exact stats.

maybe it's a useful tool for some of you, but honestly you can easily make up any advantage it could provide money wise by using the time you were using searching to add an extra table or 2. A simple hud with 3 stats and watching, maybe a note occationaly if you play the same people alot is really all thats needed.

I feel bad it's gone for anyone that feels like they relied on it, but I'm still glade to see it go and hope Stars is succesful at blocking the ability to gather the data too.

It would suck if Stars blocked SS from tracking SNGs entirely. I generally just use it out of curiosity, too, but not being able to look up degen SS graphs would make me sad

MichaelJ,

What would SS have to do to get back on Stars' good side, and are they making any attempts at doing it?

Michael:

As someone who has been staked in the past because of profitable SNG results, and someone who now stakes players with profitable SNG results, how am I as a staker supposed to find new horses? Surely Pokerstars won't verify data for me that someone gives me. This seemingly hurts a lot of people on both sides of the poker economy since it will be harder for people to get and receive stakes without some kind of validation of their stats. This isn't one of your concerns I'm sure, and you likely don't care very much.

But stop to think how much money comes into the poker ecosystem through staking, without it, myself (and i've played 15k+ games this year alone) and a lot of my friends wouldn't be on your site paying 20k+ in rake

You think this is a pretty important function and yet do not implement a simple button in the client that lets you have a complete view of your wins and losses? Come on now, pretending that you are anything other than a self serving casino that wants to make it as hard as reasonably possible for people to find out how much they have lost really hurts your credibility.

The more you clutter up the options tabs with trivial stuff, the harder it is to find stuff that matters. What's so hard about writing an email? You can even ask Stars how many hands you've played since you opened your account. You need a button for that too?

Also some people don't want wifey snooping their losses. It's bad enough they can get clues with SS type sites. I remember when I worked in a casino, this one time an inspector started openly talking to a customer about the £12000 he'd lost that month in front of his wife. Didn't go down well. Heheh.

edit:

You have played 339613 real money hands in the lifetime of your account.
Please let us know if you need any further assistance, we'll be happy to
help.

Regards,

Joanne
PokerStars Support Team

sfdifficult

Michal, thanks for the answers.
Now I have two options: either unsubscribe sharkscope, or leave pokerstars. And I am tending to leave pokerstars, because sharkscope really helped for table selection. Good reg will never insult a fish with sharscope stats. This is a normally a fish who insults a fish. It always make fun for fish to look at scarskope stats, when you play only 1-4 tables, which fish normally does and they will be dissapointed to lose this opportunity. So, who wins in this situation? Scarscope will lose subscribers, some regs will move from pokerstarts, some fish will get banned and will never return to pokerstars.

P.S. If you want to make it like real life game, let people change their nicknames, for example once a month, because you can change your appearance in life game as well.

The only people who want regular name changes are fish and 500/1000 NL players that can't get any action. And no, a fake moustache isn't as effective as an online name change. Go to Cake if you think your competition makes better use of info about you than you do about them.

Why do stars dont just keep track of statistics like SS does and share them with every players on the room? So there would be no more advatages for anyone...

I've got two questions:
Am I getting problems when I play my session on my desktop, end my session, close Pokerstars, shut down my computer and look up my own sharkscope stats on my laptop ( same IP address)

I only use sharkscope for my own stats, finding out what ROI I have in filtered games etc. so see where I am most profitably and I think that is not really an advantage... So if sharkscope actually followed your rules I could simply opt in and would still be able to look at my own stats while playing a session without a problem?
Which means that all the people who only use SS to look at their own stats should try to convince SS to follow Pokerstars rules so it would be legal again to watch at your own stats?

MichaelJ: Thanks for coming in here and giving such a thorough response and cleared up all the issues. Once again stars support has gone above and beyond to communicate directly with their players.

One more quick question - if sharkscope agreed to your opt-out system contained in the poker client, would they then be permitted? Would the tourney selector and OG hud be permitted? Or are there additional issues? Can you be more specific in what is contained in the third-party website agreement?

edit:

Then it directs you to fulltiltpoker.com

throughout the thread, continuous posts on "datamining" came to my attention.. are programs like holdem manager / pt3 considered under this category? And if so, is pokerstars making attempts to prevent these from running with the pokerstars client open as well?

I haven't seen anything written about this yet, so i am quite curious.

SSisn't going to do that from what I understand. Then they won't make any money. They basically make their money by helping people datamine from games they haven't played on.

They have a "fake" block function where registered users can still view blocked stats which alone makes SS ban worthy IMO.


I am pretty sure while the client isn't open your fine to look at your own stats. It has been implied multiple times while the client is closed they won't do anything.

i'm a registered member

when i search someone with blocked stats, they still show up as blocked


someone tell me what im doing wrong so i can get nosey

- Datamining is using hands that you did not play (from observation, or from purchasing hand histories or swapping databases) that you then import in to HEM and P3 to use for analysis and to show stats in your HUD. This is explicitly prohibited by pokerstars.

- However tracking programs (HEM et al) are explicitly permitted by pokerstars, if the tracking program has only tracked hands that you yourself were dealt hands.


Hope that clears up the confusion.

PT/HM are considered OK because they only track hands where you are actually involved (which is not datamining).

You can still view that total profit and overall ROI. But otherwise their stats are blocked.