Revising the JCM pushbot charts - Page 4 - MTT Poker Strategy

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Revising the JCM pushbot charts

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06-12-2009 , 08:45 AM

#76

Soggenbart

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 1,458

I want this plz...

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06-13-2009 , 01:37 PM

#77

Brian.

banned

Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 5,676

So the JCM pushbot chart link is down, and I'm horrible at/hate tournaments so I'm pretty much flying blind without it. Anyone have an alternate link to JCM chart or something like it? Thanks.

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06-13-2009 , 02:35 PM

#78

beansroast01

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 20,494

want plz

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06-13-2009 , 03:24 PM

#79

gmack

centurion

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 194

I would like to see this as well please

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06-13-2009 , 04:48 PM

#80

adventurer

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,371

I would love to see this numbers,please.Thanks!

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06-13-2009 , 06:32 PM

#81

jontsef

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,065

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian

So the JCM pushbot chart link is down, and I'm horrible at/hate tournaments so I'm pretty much flying blind without it. Anyone have an alternate link to JCM chart or something like it? Thanks.

get the book kill everyone. it has the best pushing and calling charts

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10-09-2009 , 01:26 PM

#82

Zenkei2007

adept

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 918

Quote:

Originally Posted by jontsef

get the book kill everyone. it has the best pushing and calling charts

but kill everyone != exploitative shoves or calls.

the calling ranges they assume are based on the fact that they are shoving equilibrium which they always arent.

and also, people call way tighter than you think, and the charts overlook that.

if you wanna be neutral ev then yes playing it will always win for you in the long run, but i think you can play better than the chart it gives.

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10-09-2009 , 02:13 PM

#83

Scary_Tiger

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 21,487

So um how do I get a copy? Link seemed broke and I'm bad at reading long posts. Do I need to PM you Zenk?

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10-09-2009 , 03:04 PM

#84

JITxpert

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,941

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scary_Tiger

So um how do I get a copy? Link seemed broke and I'm bad at reading long posts. Do I need to PM you Zenk?

Here's a pushbot that I created that uses JCMs three calling ranges plus two more. It is in excel and is in the format of the 13x13 card grid.

You enter the BB/ante/your stack/players left to act...choose villain's calling range, and the 13x13 will populate with the long term expected M of the shove. It color codes the 13x13 with -cEV shoves being red, +cEV shoves being yellow, and really + cEV shoves being green.

The math is just straight forward cEV calcs based on fold % and equity against calling ranges that came right out of pokerstove.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=9...1b77d2eb488dac

There is also a "callbot" calc on a separate tab in the spreadsheet, based on the same principles as the pushbot.

let me know what you think of it.

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10-10-2009 , 08:47 AM

#85

Motus

enthusiast

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 77

Quote:

Originally Posted by JITxpert

I have no idea if this works or not, but its pretty sweet looking. Well done.

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10-13-2009 , 06:35 AM

#86

jontsef

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,065

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenkei2007

you're right on some level.

"kill everyone != exploitative shoves or calls"
they're not exploitive vs equilibrium shoving and calling ranges, which you admit is not usually the case: "people call way tighter than you think." So the chart IS exploitive vs tighter than equilibrium ranges.

That makes it +EV, NOT neutral EV, and never -EV.

"you can play better than the chart it gives"
I agree, but it's good to have a starting point to know what the equilibrium shoves and calls are and then stray from them based on each of your opponent's ranges, knowing that you can always resort back to the chart when you're not sure about their ranges, and still know you're not making a -EV move.

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10-13-2009 , 08:48 AM

#87

JITxpert

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,941

Quote:

Originally Posted by Motus

I have no idea if this works or not, but its pretty sweet looking. Well done.

Hey thanks for the kind words!

As for if it "works", well, you have to take it for what it's worth which is just a calculator, that tells you if a shove you are considering is mathematically +cEV against villain's calling range. I feel pretty comfortable in the math, and I have left the spreadsheet unlocked so anyone can check the formulas and the data in the tables. Again, sometimes the +cEV push may not be the "optimal" play, and this calculator should be used as "information" into any poker decision, not the be all and end all. And this tool (as with any PushBot) is only as good as Hero's ability to put Villain on a calling range.

The math in the pushbot is the following:

Cell Value in 13x13 = [Villain Fold % * (Hero's stack + Blinds and Antes)
+ Villain Call % * (Hero's stack * 2 + Blinds and Antes) * Hand Equity against Villain's Range] / Blinds and Antes

The resulting number is the long term expected M for that push against the villain's range. If the long term expected M > Hero's starting M, then the shove is +cEV.

The hand equity against Villain's Range was done using Pokerstove and in a data table on a separate tab in the spreadsheet. Feel free to double check any of the values yourself.

If someone thinks that more ranges should be added to this, let me know what you think they are and I can add and redistribute. If anyone finds any errors or has any other questions, feel free to PM me.

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10-14-2009 , 01:29 PM

#88

Motus

enthusiast

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 77

Quote:

Originally Posted by JITxpert

I'm very new to all of these calculators, but I've been using this when I've been playing over the last couple of days, and its really really easy to use and has been incredibly helpful.

I can't even imagine how much work it took to put all of this together, but thanks for doing it!

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10-14-2009 , 02:33 PM

#89

JITxpert

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,941

Quote:

Originally Posted by Motus

I'm very new to all of these calculators, but I've been using this when I've been playing over the last couple of days, and its really really easy to use and has been incredibly helpful.

That's what I like to hear! I use it too for close, non-ICM shoves, and I can enter the data and have the mathematically +cEV shoves well before the timebank even pops up.

Any suggestion for more villain calling ranges, or are the six that are in there good enough?

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10-14-2009 , 02:42 PM

#90

shinigami

adept

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 744

Quote:

Originally Posted by JITxpert

Average+any aces+any pairs: 22+,A2s+,KJs+,QJs,A2o+,KQo
people love them aces/pairs....

love the 1.2rev with callbot

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10-14-2009 , 03:08 PM

#91

JITxpert

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,941

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinigami

Average+any aces+any pairs: 22+,A2s+,KJs+,QJs,A2o+,KQo
people love them aces/pairs....

love the 1.2rev with callbot

The equities for the above range will be scary close to the "Average" range of 55+,A2s+,KJs+,QJs,A8o+,KQo. So just use that.

I was thinking of getting a way loose range in here, somewhere up around 33%

33.9% (slightly modified from what stove would default) 22+,A2s+,K4s+,Q6s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,A2o+,K9o+,QTo+,JT o,T9o

This would help the callbot with short stack shoves, and the pushbot when you are shorted stacked and may get called very wide. Whattya think??

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10-14-2009 , 07:21 PM

#92

harrythree

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 494

Quote:

Originally Posted by JITxpert

would also help with BvB shoves....ppl are slowly realizing they should be calling a lot wider out of the blinds (still not wide enough imo) but i think it would help with players adjusting to ppl they know will call a lot wider.

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10-15-2009 , 10:44 PM

#93

Motus

enthusiast

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 77

Quote:

Originally Posted by JITxpert

Totally a brag post, but I was just able to finally take down a 180 man turbo after a lot of trying. Used the spreadsheet the whole way.

Send me your stars name and I will ship a thank you toke.

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10-16-2009 , 05:44 PM

#94

Sorrybadbeat

banned

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,061

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenkei2007

you are completely misinterpreting the charts, the numbers are the maximum that you can move in with, any higher and you are pushing too much M for it to be profitable, theres a LOT of spots where if you have less than 8 M it's not profitable to shove.

As far as the math goes...

We are assuming the caller has a range of 66+,A8o+,A6s+,KQs which is what one of JCM's ranges for average were I believe, and I think that is about what people will normally call you with when you move all in (save some crazies but for the most part).

This range is 12.2%, or in decimal notation .122(Which is what is listed in the calling cell).

Let's take an example of shoving JTo with 5 players left to act(Since obviously shoving any hand with more than 50% equity against a range is going to win chips in the long run no matter how often you're called).

JTo has roughly 36% equity against the calling range(Which is what is listed in the equity cell for JTo).

With these numbers, we have everything we need to make our calculation.

Let M be your stack in M, and S your stack. In order to get the folding part of the equation we subtract the calling % from 100%, or 1 since we are using decimals and get .878. This is how often you would get a fold with 1 player left to act. But since we have 5 players, we have to multiply .878 times itself 5 times, or ^5.

So, we start off with (.522)(M)

Then we have to add the actual equity of the hand. JCM made his old charts by simply taking your stack and using the base equity as opposed to adding in blinds and antes on top of the doubling through equity. So, we will end up winning 1 M and 1 S about 36% of the time, and losing an entire S about 64% of the time, which comes out to:

(.36M-.28S)(.478) Since 36-64 = Losing 28% of your stack everytime you make this play, and you are being called about 48% of the time.

In order to find M we need to to multiply and combine like terms:

.478 * .36 M = .172 M + .522 M(from the above fold equity) = .694 M

.478 * -.28 S = -.134 S

Dividing these two numbers we get .694 M / -.134 S and The ratio of your M to S is 5.2 (We change the negative back to a positive number and round to the nearest tenth in the chart).

If you want to check it, let's take a stack of 1500 chips and divide it by 5.2 to represent the blinds and antes:

(.522)(289) + (1789*.36 + (-1500*.64))(.478) = 0

Since shoves are breakeven in the chart, you obviously might wanna move in a bit lower, but you never are usually going to be able to move in at the exact M listed anyway so it won't ever be a problem I don't think.

As you can see though, it is NOT profitable to move in with ATC with an M of less than 8, in fact up front with the calling range listed, many of the hands aren't even shovable with an M of 3.

I am really confused with this whole discussion above (sorry).So if I have an M of 8 or less and I am in the small blind, the big blind has a calling range of Aces + Pairs or 20.36% the blinds are 100/200 + 25 ante 9 people at the table .When I enter this in your chart all of the squares turn either yellow or green.The chart says that yellow indicates that it is a +Cev shove and green is also + Cev.Could you please explain to me what you mean when you say "theres a LOT of spots where if you have less than 8 M it's not profitable to shove".Great program by the way and kudos to you for sharing.Thanks!

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10-16-2009 , 05:52 PM

#95

Pcallinallin

formerly the original donkey penis

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 5,035

Is there an updated copy since 9/26/09?

Can somone post link to that updated file please.

Thanks

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10-17-2009 , 01:03 AM

#96

harrythree

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 494

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pcallinallin

Is there an updated copy since 9/26/09?

Can somone post link to that updated file please.

Thanks

OP posted this link on the last page. its 1.2 which is the most up to date version that i know of...

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ymwemkonlin

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10-17-2009 , 03:18 AM

#97

ohcrocsle

grinder

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 612

so how were the original JCM charts I have on my computer calculated incorrectly?

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10-18-2009 , 01:38 PM

#98

harrythree

grinder

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 494

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohcrocsle

so how were the original JCM charts I have on my computer calculated incorrectly?

i think it was that they're too "tight"...plus i think they didnt calculate antes into calculations....i may be wrong about the antes...

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10-21-2009 , 01:30 PM

#99

JITxpert

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,941

Thanks to all for the feedback on the PushBot spreadsheet. I have integrated some of the suggestions/requests people have asked for and have a new version (PushBot 2.0) for folks.

Changes include:
* larger font in PushBot Chart
* changed CallBot into a 13x13 grid (versus the select cards from pulldown). This is cool because you can see all the PokerStove hand equities against a range at once.
* added a new range "Loose" 22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q6s+,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,A2o+,K8o+,QT o+,JTo,T9o
* changed the layout of data entry fields for faster input
* made it so the "% of Shove/Call hands" will now recalculate as you input a minimum ROI

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ttryng...ot Rev 2.0.xls

What I haven't done is made any instructions for this, as it is somewhat self explanatory. If anyone has any questions, please feel free to IM me. Remember, this calculator is only as good as your ability to put villain's on a range. The math is an input to a poker decision, not the be all and end all. Also, PushBotting assumes you are opening the action.

Enjoy and keep the suggestions/comments coming!