Long post, but the fundamental question is: How do I adjust what is an effective STT SNG strategy so that I can be successful in MTT SNGs?

Over the course of my first 150 turbo SNGs on my current site, I had an ROI between 20% and 30%. I know some variance could be involved, but in general I'm beating the games pretty well.

I decided to try to play some MTT SNGs. The only ones that seem to fill up reasonably quickly are the turbos (and maybe that's part of my problem here as I may just be giving up my edge playing flipaments). But the bottom line is that my results have been horrible. In an effort to improve I focused on only playing MTT SNGs and all I did was give back my $1000 profit on $25 STT by playing $25 MTT SNGs.

My basic single table strategy is:
- Identify the donks quickly and don't be afraid to splash with them from position when many limp and implied odds are good. I'll pretty much play any pair, suited connector or one-gapper in the first round or two, because donks love to double you

- Tighten up when the implied odds aren't as good (This depends on my stack size and the stack sizes of target donks.

- Steal just enough to cross the money line if I have an average stack. Beat up other players near the money line if I have a big stack.

This seems to give me a lot more first place finishes than anything else and if I look at my finish histogram, 4th place is my least frequent finish. (I suppose I could work on fewer 9th place finishes, but it's just because I won't fold TPTK to a donk and I believe that's +EV early in a SNG.)

So when I try to translate this to MTT, I get in trouble in the middle stages. I almost never have the big stack advantage that I will sometimes get in STT and even if I do, other people catch up quickly. My other problem seems to be that if I do get in a small "M" situation, I'm not used to doing it at a full table. I guess when it comes down to it, I feel like I need to get cards to win in the MTT, because steals get called way too much and I've found myself in too many race situations (and it's tough to expect to win multiple coin flips).

I guess I would be OK with not having all the big money finishes if I was getting my fair share of cashes, but unlike STTs, I'm often out between mid-tournament and the bubble. The few times I have crossed the money line I either didn't have much or lost a big hand right after the money line.

So you are asking how to win and place highly in MTT without ever getting into races(i.e. winning them) and/or getting a lot of cards thrown your way...

Ya, ok, good luck with that.

sounds like u need to focus on playing to win more, not just get itm - all the money is at the top

yeah also a little OT but it sounds like your stt game would benefit alot from learning ICM theory

short answer: ask mutigers5591

Well, I have to admit that I didn't know the term ICM, but I know the concept.

I said I very seldom finish 4th and my most frequent finish is 1st, so that would suggest that I know when to use ICM principles to bully others and when I have to fold nice hands to cross the money line. When I said "gambling" early with donks is +EV I mean +$EV not just +cEV. I'm only talking about doing this with players I know to be bad (-10% ROI or worse) and the worse they are, the more I'm willing to push a top pair type of hand.

But maybe this is my problem. I don't feel like I need to race a lot to make the money in STT unless I end up short-stacked. In MTT everybody is essentially short-stacked. I much prefer fold equity to races. I lose my best STT advantage when I play MTT. Yet some people do very well playing MTT, so there must be other strategies that provide a long-term edge over just racing.

imo the biggest difference between a STT and an MTT-SNG is that $EV is not really a consideration until you're close to the bubble/final table in the latter. so you'll want to be thinking more about cEV than $EV for most of the tournament, and that will help inform your play.

gamble more imo

I'm getting ready to start grinding EPT steps, maybe we can have some sort of mind-meld.

Honestly, I didn't really read your entire first post, but based off the quoted statement I can already tell you you're not that good at STTs


Actually it means that you're gambling too much early on and lowering your total ROI even though you're raising your # of firsts.

In an STT your goal is survival. Don't risk x chips to win y chips if you don't have to, because the value of losing x tends to outweigh the value of winning y chips. (Obv unavoidable situations aside, obv huge overlay situations aside, etc...) In an STT, there is a huge value in simply surviving to 5 handed or the bubble. In an MTT, survival mean [i]NOTHING[i]. Your goal isn't to squeek ahead a few spots, its to GET A LOT OF CHIPPIES.

My guess would be that while your STT play isn't ideal for STTs, you're probably more on your way to being an MTT player than other STTers.

(BTW my background is in STTs so I know what I'm talking about.)

These are good posts:

Are $25 MTT's a good place to start if $25 is your level in your main game of STT's?
Maybe try a little lower until up to speed.

Karl

P.S. If Millionaire ignore the above

150 SNG's. That's like a good morning for some. Pretty small sample size to be thinking you are a good STT'er.