Poor shove right before final table? - MTT Poker Strategy

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Poor shove right before final table?

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07-09-2009 , 01:38 AM

smaug8821

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,835

$4.40/180. I was sitting at 6th of 10 or something like that. Is the villain just pushing his big stack around? Obviously you can't call here. Fold or shove?

Poker Stars $4.00+$0.40 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t400/t800 Blinds + t75 - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BTN: t15244 M = 9.68
SB: t85001 M = 53.97
Hero (BB): t16222 M = 10.30
UTG: t45040 M = 28.60
CO: t13795 M = 8.76

Pre Flop: (t1575) Hero is BB with Q

1 fold, CO calls t800, 1 fold, SB raises to t2400, Hero ????

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07-09-2009 , 02:00 AM

Ostap Bender

journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 325

Is villain ever folding? If not then i don't like it as much.
Has he been 3 betting a lot & have you seen him 3 bet OOP before? If so this makes me lean towards shove.

I think this spot is very read dependent. Do you have any info other than "he might be pushing his big stack around"?

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07-09-2009 , 02:01 AM

smaug8821

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,835

Nope, I had been switched over to this table two hands before this one.

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07-09-2009 , 02:07 AM

altrnbdss

journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 211

as ostap said, this is very read dependent. no reads this is a fold

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07-09-2009 , 02:08 AM

Ostap Bender

journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 325

Without any reads I fold & wait until I do get some reads on the table. In general I like to wait & see what's going on before jumping into big pots (especially against the big stack).

On the other hand shoving isn't awful & probably only slightly -cEV; may however be substantially -$EV.

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07-09-2009 , 02:08 AM

esevans

journeyman

Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 294

Easily could be pushing his stack around. I would like to have some FE to go along with my KQ, but I don't think you have it here against his stack size + he seems to like his hand. This plus CO still left to act, althouh he's folding most all the time, who knows? He shouldn't have limped in, but he did, so he probably won't know he's supposed to fold either. If he calls, bigstack is pretty much calling (he might fold 23o) and you're dodging lots of cards, or have to hit. I think I fold here.

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07-09-2009 , 02:09 AM

esevans

journeyman

Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 294

Quote:

Originally Posted by smaug8821

Nope, I had been switched over to this table two hands before this one.

Just saw this. Think it's a instafold now.

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07-09-2009 , 02:28 AM

jcpeace

journeyman

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 208

I'd flat if it were just the blinds in the hand but the CO might shove. Probably folding is best.

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07-09-2009 , 02:29 AM

furo

deviation of equilibrium

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 29,639

without reads i push A8+ KJ+ 66+ BvB
the fact that he has a big stack has no influence in the decision. its only important how he got the chips.

the struture favours top 3 placings as well, so i say get it in and IF called we have a good hand.

im not THAT concerned about CO having anything

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07-09-2009 , 02:33 AM

#10

Willyoman

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 10,468

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcpeace

I'd flat if it were just the blinds in the hand but the CO might shove. Probably folding is best.

Flatting isn't an option.

I can't see not pushing this all-in.

Yes, that's a double negative.

I shove... we have 20BB... facing a limp + a raise... 5 handed... BvB... and we have a K and a Q, and they are sooted.

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07-09-2009 , 02:39 AM

#11

smaug8821

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,835

Interesting. I guess this is one of those hands where either could be argued to be the right play.

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07-09-2009 , 02:46 AM

#12

Ostap Bender

journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 325

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willyoman

we have a K and a Q, and they are sooted.

How dare we consider folding a suited hand!?

SB completes here soooo much more than he raises. He has a reason for raising here, & its not to isolate limper with a garbage hand.

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07-09-2009 , 03:55 AM

#13

dereds

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 16,782

I shove here pretty much always

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07-09-2009 , 03:55 AM

#14

Willyoman

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 10,468

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ostap Bender

How dare we consider folding a suited hand!?

SB completes here soooo much more than he raises. He has a reason for raising here, & its not to isolate limper with a garbage hand.

Sooooo what's your range for SB?

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07-09-2009 , 03:57 AM

#15

Willyoman

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 10,468

Quote:

Originally Posted by smaug8821

Interesting. I guess this is one of those hands where either could be argued to be the right play.

Yeah, I don't think so really, should be a snap shove.

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07-09-2009 , 04:00 AM

#16

dereds

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 16,782

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ostap Bender

How dare we consider folding a suited hand!?

SB completes here soooo much more than he raises. He has a reason for raising here, & its not to isolate limper with a garbage hand.

he has over 100BB's, we are 5 handed, we have 20BB's and a ton of FE, we run pretty well against a lot of his calling range and the villain can be applying pressure on the FT bubble

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07-09-2009 , 04:03 AM

#17

jcpeace

journeyman

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 208

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willyoman

Flatting isn't an option.

not even if the CO folded here and it was just you and him and you have position? I'm being serious.

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07-09-2009 , 04:05 AM

#18

Ostap Bender

journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 325

Hand Pot equity Wins
AA-55,AK-AT 60.49%
KdQd 39.51%

Compare with pot odds; add in ICM considerations & it becomes pretty lopsided, especially without any reads.

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07-09-2009 , 04:05 AM

#19

Willyoman

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Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 10,468

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcpeace

not even if the CO folded here and it was just you and him and you have position? I'm being serious.

Serious cat is being serious too.

You simply can't call off 20% of your stack pre-flop... you'll have to fold the flop if you don't bink a K, Q or strong draw... so you'll have to fold a lot... so yeah, calling pre is really not an option.

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07-09-2009 , 04:08 AM

#20

Willyoman

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 10,468

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ostap Bender

Hand Pot equity Wins
AA-55,AK-AT 60.49%
KdQd 39.51%

Compare with pot odds; add in ICM considerations & it becomes pretty lopsided, especially without any reads.

OK, I'm thinking more like 44+, A2s+, KTs+, QJs, A4o+, KTo+, QJo, and/so I think we have some FE, too.

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07-09-2009 , 04:09 AM

#21

PhigNootin

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 301

+1 for insta-shove. I think we still have fold equity as this will look like a really strong hand, and like someone else has said. This structure is all about coming in the top 3. We aren't getting from 16K 10 handed to top 3 finish without aggressive gambles.

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07-09-2009 , 04:12 AM

#22

Ostap Bender

journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 325

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willyoman

OK, I'm thinking more like 44+, A2s+, KTs+, QJs, A4o+, KTo+, QJo, and/so I think we have some FE, too.

Why would he raise so small? He is pricing in BB & CO to call with their entire range. I don't see why villain would build the pot OOP with garbage.

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07-09-2009 , 04:14 AM

#23

jcpeace

journeyman

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 208

I hate poker

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07-09-2009 , 04:35 AM

#24

PageUp

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 5,386

That's a pretty scary raise, since people tend to be super tight from the SB. That said, I probably shove because we have a K and a Q of the same suit. It's probably a mistake, but I do it anyway.

And yeah, if we can't shove for value, we definitely shouldn't be flatting.

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07-09-2009 , 04:44 AM

#25

Ostap Bender

journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 325

Quote:

Originally Posted by PageUp

That's a pretty scary raise, since people tend to be super tight from the SB. That said, I probably shove because we have a K and a Q of the same suit. It's probably a mistake, but I do it anyway.

Like i said earlier, I don't think shoving is that bad a play. I would just love to hear a better rationale for doing it other than the fact that we are s00ted.

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