Ironic this situation comes up a day or 2 after I post a thread on folding to a dead stack to prolong the bubble. Anyway me and Paw717 had an exchange earlier in the day, but nothing major, at least I didnt think so. We are both regular players. Then we get to this situation where he is big stack, I am second and third stack is sitting out. 6-player, top 2 get paid.

So starting from this hand, I have no choice but to fold every hand.

Table '233914022 1' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: jaxtraw (2370 in chips)
Seat 4: PAW717 (4735 in chips)
Seat 5: jb hvolgaard (1895 in chips)
jaxtraw: posts the ante 25
PAW717: posts the ante 25
jb hvolgaard: posts the ante 25
jb hvolgaard: posts small blind 100
jaxtraw: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jaxtraw [Qs 4s]
PAW717: raises 4510 to 4710 and is all-in
jb hvolgaard has timed out while disconnected
jb hvolgaard: folds
jaxtraw: folds
Uncalled bet (4510) returned to PAW717
PAW717 collected 575 from pot
PAW717: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 575 | Rake 0
Seat 2: jaxtraw (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: PAW717 (button) collected (575)
Seat 5: jb hvolgaard (small blind) folded before Flop

Then we get to this hand:


Dealt to jaxtraw [Qc Ks]
jaxtraw: folds
PAW717: folds
Uncalled bet (200) returned to jb hvolgaard
jb hvolgaard collected 475 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 475 | Rake 0
Seat 2: jaxtraw (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: PAW717 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: jb hvolgaard (big blind) collected (475)

Then I said:

Dealt to jaxtraw [2c 9h]
jaxtraw said, "watch the karma"
PAW717: raises 400 to 800
jaxtraw said, "aand collusion"
jb hvolgaard has timed out while disconnected
jb hvolgaard: folds
jaxtraw: folds
Uncalled bet (400) returned to PAW717
PAW717 collected 1075 from pot
PAW717: doesn't show hand
PAW717 said, "thats not collusion"
jaxtraw said, "i guess we'll see if it is,"
PAW717 said, "i want you to bubble, i dont care about him

Thoughts?

support@pokerstars.com

hes a SNE supports not allowed to get mad at him.

I shouldve put in that at the time he folded to the dead stack I was T690 and he was T575 with blinds 200/400.

Not sure if this matches the definition of collusion, according to the site's TOC or whatever. Do they even provide a definition for collusion?

But if the other guy was sitting out, then clearly it's +EV for Paw to try and screw you over... because if you bubble, then he's guaranteed to win 1st place.

So I think he can make the case that under the conditions of this specific game, he was acting in his own self-interest... therefore it's not collusion.

I thought this was a pretty common practice among players knowing what they are doing. I mean I used to do this when I had a 2% roi at the 6.50s lol. Far from collusion imo.

id rather u bubbled here too, i dont mean you specifically but in this type of spot vs whoever. a dead stack isnt going to come back. and if he is just trying to **** u over then unfortunate for you but he can do whatever he wants.

he's right and you're wrong.
it's not collusion, stop whining.

i do this everytime and 2x on sundays.

i did this to a player and he reported me, full tilt then froze my account until i could prove identification lol

Dick move obvs but it seems fine. He gets you to bubble and then he wins 100% of the time HU instead of bringing in the chance of losing to you HU.

Now I'm sad that I've never gotten to do this to someone

it's +ev for him to keep the bubble alive...he can fold to the dead stack every hand and shove on your stack every hand...standard imo..oh and shove KQ please

lol jax im sorry but do you know the definition of collusion?

I can't even imagine how you could consider this as him doing something wrong from rules standpoint.

yes it sucks and it's annoying but think for a min, how can what he's doing be wrong?

this

It's kind of awkward, but what should he have done? Folded to sit out till you were short and then let you get itm? That seems more like collusion.

I guess once we know he's going to keep folding, so have to call wide, it becomes less +EV for him to keep it going, and more of a spite situation, but even then I don't think it is collusion... people spite call/shove each other all the time.

How wide should we call once we know he's doing this? Even if we call and double up he could just keep doing it till we lose a showdown, so do we almost have to play for first? It seems like we never get 2nd. Unless we have enough chips to start limping the button to make sure sit out is blinded off.

Glad I posted, as I totally misinterpreted his statement of wanting me to bubble. Downswings make you see things that arent there, sigh.

Just email support - our opinion doesn't matter.

He played it perfectly IMO.No doubt he is a winning player,adapting and reading the situation when probably is 12tabling.Impressive .

I do the same he did, especially if you really start folding all hands. Btw I ship the KQ hand for example.

My thoughts are that you can push some hands (when first to act) despite the high bubble factor and (unless you were card dead) it's your own fault that you got to this point in the first place.

You have to push top 15% probably top 20%.

PokerStars' response:

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.

I have reviewed the actions and chat of 'PAW717', and have found their
actions to have violated PokerStars tournament rules, listed at:

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/tournaments/rules/

Although many of our players are not aware of all proper poker rules and
etiquette, this player has now been informed of the applicable rules.

Any future contraventions of the rules by this player will result in their
receiving a chat revocation or even a tournament disqualification.

I have advanced you into 2nd place in tournament #233914022 and credited
your account with $151.20 to reflect your new finishing position so that you
will not have been financially disadvantaged by this action.

Once again, thanks for your report, and best of luck at the tables.

Kind Regards,

Jim
PokerStars Game Security

Wow, I figured this would be standard play.

So is PokerStars Support viewing this as a breach of rule #20 under Unethical Play? And if so, is his chat what breaks the rule? not necessarily his action?

Really curious now...

-Hiway

?? Which rule has the guy contravened???

Congrats on the refund, but was exactly did villain do that was wrong. I read the rules and couldn't find anything.