Mr. Results oriented much? My only question is, do you post this if the K doesn't river and MP2 shows up with TT?

Sherman

sherman...don't question you much but recognize a pure and pathetically childish rant...lol

just amuses me how sure you all are and I've been 50/50 to run into AA/KK in the last few days...

and I'm surpised you didnt post anything in the comedy thread!

sold me...77, QQ and AK are never folded again...88-JJ snap folds along with 22-66

Yes you are correct. I should have realized (given your other posts in the thread) you were just ****ing around. My bad.

Have to agree with OP - clearly I should have shoved here.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney ($10+1), Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG (t11150)
Hero (t5050)
MP1 (t14430)
MP2 (t15483)
MP3 (t2970)
CO (t12385)
Button (t16670)
SB (t26605)
BB (t16002)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q, Q.
1 fold, Hero raises to t600, 1 fold, MP2 raises to t2000, 1 fold, CO raises to t5000, 3 folds, Hero folds, MP2 raises to t15483, CO calls t7385 (All-In).

Flop: (t28768) Q, K, 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t28768) 8 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t28768) T (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t25670

Results in white below:
MP2 has Kc Ac (one pair, kings).
CO has Ah Ad (one pair, aces).
Outcome: CO wins t25670.

This actually happened today!

Requires a little setup. During the rebuy period I was expecting to see the usual ram and jam and my roll is getting a little low so I just wanted to wait for good spots to pick off the LAGs. Instead the table played tighter than a full ring cash game. I changed my tactics and was the biggest LAG at maybe 18/12. Everyone elses PFR% was 10 or lower! I had to look back to see that I didn't sign up for the wrong tournament. Some of us even discussed how strange it was during the break.

Aside from a couple of short stack all-ins and one time where 2 short stacks started a chain reaction of all-ins, all of the all-ins that showed down during the rebuy were just cold decks. I looked them up:

Hand 1:
Set of 9s vs top 2 pair on the flop

Hand 2:
With 2 bets on flop, the turn saw 3 all-ins, 2 pair made on the turn pushed first, set pushed 2nd, str8+FD was pot commited to call.

Hand 3:
flopped trips vs full house.

Hand 4:
AA vs AA

Not long after the rebuy this happened:

Poker Stars $5.00+$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t100/t200 Blinds - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

CO: t5700
BTN: t3265
SB: t5067
BB: t2495
UTG: t4382
UTG+1: t7528
Hero (UTG+2): t9160
MP1: t5735
MP2: t9263

Pre Flop: Hero is UTG+2 with K K
UTG calls t200, 1 fold, Hero raises to t800, 3 folds, BTN raises to t3265 all in, 2 folds, UTG raises to t4382 all in, Hero calls t3582

Flop: (t12329) 8 6 2 (3 players - 2 are all in)

Turn: (t12329) T (3 players - 2 are all in)

River: (t12329) 3 (3 players - 2 are all in)



Of course the trap meant AA/KK and since I was pretty certain the quick all-in overbet was AK, that meant that I was just as certain that I was dead to one out.

I really really wanted to muck the KK but couldn't bring myself to do it because it felt like I would be breaking some kind of sacred poker code.

I dont think I could fold here with 25 bb's

BTW, there have been many times where I insta mucked AK such as when I would be the UTG raiser with AK and 2 tight big stacks would 4 bet and 5 bet.

Another easy place to fold AK is when the table is at push/fold mode and you see a tight player with a big stack raise and someone, not necessarilly a good or tight player, would minraise. I have never seen the minraise be anything but AA so why even bother with such a marginal situation when your not invested.

AK simply does not hold up well vs 2 very tight ranges.

And to say that just because there are nutcases who raise/reraise with rediculous ranges means you should never fold to anyone just makes no sense at all. Just look at the players poker tracker PFR% and you can assign ranges. Players with 10%/4% are not that uncommon especially during the middle of a weekday. 4% is TT+, AQs+, AKo so it's even tighter UTG and another super tight player who knows this is only reraising with AA/KK. I have also seen such players overlimp with TT or JJ as standard.

I was going to say you had more than one out because of the straight, but AK ruined that. You did have a live club for a flush though -- you gotta have faith!

You could muck KK here ONLY because you knew you'd see your opponents hands. If you don't get to see the AA, it will haunt you forever, -LifeEV.

I folded KK face-up in a high-stakes live cash game once and I still wonder, because the rat didn't show. What made it even worse is that it was a button/blinds confrontation.

Live makes it a little easier. Last year at the WSOP 2K NLHM event there was a guy who limped UTG and immediately put on his poker face and stared straight ahead even though no one else was paying attention to him with the rest of the table yet to act. Throughout the remaining action he just stared straight ahead not caring if anyone called or raised. When it came to me I mucked AQs. Of course he had AA.

In another situation at a WPT event, I had KK and raised UTG to 3BBs to 600. The player to my left was very young and must have qualified online. It looked like it he had never played in a casino before. He didn't know how to handle his chips, look at his cards, didn't know the basic betting rules etc. More importantly he looked extremely nervous the entire time. It showed on his face, his body language, his nervous hands, everything. Then he reraised me to 2000, we both started with around 20,000. I looked at him and he had his poker face on and was as still as a statue and completely at ease. Once again I wanted to muck my kings but instead decided to play it as WAWB. I called, he bet something rediculous, like 800 on a nothing board and I called, a J came on the turn and we both checked, the river was a blank and I started to doubt my read and finally bet 1200. He minraised me and I made a crying call. He had the aces and I showed the kings.

John Cernuto, who was at the table was stunned and said that that was the best he had ever seen anyone play kings vs aces before.

Now we're advocating folding KK sometimes...sigh. I am kinda proud though, never had a thread get this many responses/views. I really didn't think this was an issue that would be argued about in the SSMTT. And to be honest if you're able to lay down QQ or AK pre, and you are correct enough for it to qualify as a +ev play, then you really should be playing HSMTT. Keep in mind though, most people think they are MUCH better at poker than they really are. Very rarely are you going to find a player who is laying these hands down enough at the correct time for it to be +ev in SSMTT. Just keep that in mind when you think you are a total badass for the two or three times you laid down QQ/AK and your opponent showed you AA/KK.

For those of you who tell your amazing stories about that one time you made the perfect laydown, please, tell us some more of your legendary tales. Like that time you caught the game winning touchdown to win state, or that in '83 you could throw a football a 1/4 mile. We are all so intrigued and in awe of your awesomeness. Seriously, I am not being sarcastic at all, you are amazing.

....

wat?

i can count the number of times ive ran ~18/12 on 1 hand.

ok...my final thoughts on this thread...the problem with it and threads like it is this:
By reading all these I am getting into the mindset that as soon as I see my QQ/AK type hand I am immediatelytrying to manuever all my money into the pot...either by raising/pushing or by inducing a raise so I can push...

I am not using all the other skills/instincts that i usually do. I worry less about the opponents/position and satcks and just say "ZOMG I have QQ/AK"...

I think this is a bad mindset...I'm not saying that the majority of time it is not correct but rather we should stay away from tunnelvision...

Just play poker...a hand...any hand should be looked at with every factor every time...

having the rule being a hard and fast one sometimes makes us ignore other pertinent info

+1!

The whole purpose of the thread was to say that if you are forced into an all in decision PF and you hold AK or QQ, you should be calling the all in 99.99% of the time. Does that mean you won't ever run up against AA/KK if you make the call? NO!!! I'm mearly implying that nearly every person who posts in SSMTT (myself included) would be better off calling this all in everytime than trying to pick and choose the times the villian is holding AA/KK.

we're just not discussing the same thing...if someone puts you all in life is easy...you call or you don't...simple.

I am discussing when there is action either in front or behind you...as I said just because I have QQ/AK I do not automatically want to create a spot where I have o push pre or force my opponent to push me in pre...or more accurately I don't want to feel as if that's my only option.

a lot of times as much or more value can be made on these by playing poker after the flop...

Agreed. The +1 was for you. The rest of my post was directed at the many other posters who seem to be misinterpreting the whole purpose of the thread.

are we done here? can we get to heavy drinking already?

dang nabit it works

Poker Stars $11+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BTN: t1500
SB: t1500
BB: t1500
UTG: t1500
UTG+1: t1500
UTG+2: t1500
Hero (MP1): t1500
MP2: t1500
CO: t1500

Pre Flop: Hero is MP1 with K A
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t20, UTG+2 calls t20, Hero raises to t1500 all in, 7 folds

blanks...you know nothing about poker...I'm so gonna kick your ass..lolololol

Poker Stars $11+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t75/t150 Blinds - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG+1: t3650
MP: t1260
CO: t2580
BTN: t3675
Hero (SB): t3225
BB: t1460
UTG: t1740

Pre Flop: Hero is SB with A K
UTG raises to t450, 3 folds, BTN raises to t750, Hero raises to t3225 all in, 1 fold, UTG calls t1290 all in, BTN calls t2475

Flop: (t8340) Q 9 T (3 players - 2 are all in)

Turn: (t8340) 3 (3 players - 2 are all in)

River: (t8340) T (3 players - 2 are all in)

But imagine if a J had come, it would have been amazing!!

Poker Stars $11+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t75/t150 Blinds - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG+1: t3650
MP: t1260
CO: t2580
BTN: t3675
Hero (SB): t3225
BB: t1460
UTG: t1740

Pre Flop: Hero is SB with A K
UTG raises to t450, 3 folds, BTN raises to t750, Hero raises to t3225 all in, 1 fold, UTG calls t1290 all in, BTN calls t2475

Flop: (t8340) Q 9 T (3 players - 2 are all in)

Turn: (t8340) 3 (3 players - 2 are all in)

River: (t8340) T (3 players - 2 are all in)

this thread is right mostly like 95% of the time, but entirely misleading on premise. maybe it's a good rule of thumb at small stakes tourneys though in order to reduce threads that you regulars are bored of. but i think it is much better to take each situation as it comes and talk about it like consensual adults. that way each player can learn more fundamentally about the play versus follow a rule of thumb and not annoy your regulars with their posts. if they follow the rule of thumb, they won't learn as well why the hand should be played like it should be playe.=d.

You are right, but the general premise is that if people do fold these hands occasionally they'll make more mistakes with bad folds than they would with bad calls if they just never folded. That's the point of this thread.

still not sure I agree when deep...

100% it would take a lot to get me to fold either with <30BB but when deeper you have to be able to make informed reads and decisions...

you guys are still giving most of the players here too little credit for being able to read and diagnose a situation...

April's just backed up what I have been saying...hard and fast rules screw up your poker instincts and if you ingrain the rules you have a hard time developing better poker instincts...

What about...
30BB deep UTG (Tight passive player) MIN raises and quick shoves (i think time tells can be significant - any thoughts?) to your reraise? And you're like omg this guy is making it soo obvious he has two AA in his hand. Can we fold?


this is the only situation i can ever think of, and i've never folded in it. but i've run AK into AA, KK many times, need to check my stats.