Ya, given preflop board texture, floating was definitely spewy.

Ohhhhhh. I would just bet the flop as OP. Sorry!

furo are you suggesting checking back river from villains perspective?

you mean 4flush river i guess.
i dont think he plays twopair+ that way as OR so OTR he either has TPGK that hates the incoming flush or he had a hand like he did and should not fold river vs anyone competent. he should fold flop or turn if he does not think his outs are good/he cant call down vs your range.

you still did not answer whether river is for value or a bluff but i guess you gave him twopair/sets sometimes that might call and thought you where valueshoving ingame?

bolded part is crutial here, why did you shove river????


i would check back river but semesa is a good reg so i'm curious why he value/bluffshoved river and what he gave OP to c/c c/c c/ on that texture as OR. i'd asume he folds mediocre hands somewhere before the river and when the flush hits i dont see the value in jamming.

i guess we get value from making small flushes fold as others suggested?

it does not make much sense for OP to c/c c/c with clubdraws and fold them OTR when he gets there.
so semesa's intention cant really be to bluffshove river to get flushes to fold.

Kinda.

As was mentioned earlier, Hero's(OP) range is capped, he's never showing up with Ac or Kc. And psychologically, a shove on a 4 flush river is gunna look pretty strong, possibly enough to get Jc/Tc to fold. As a result, any hand he has continued with has essentially been a bluffcatcher, I'm not shoving Tc for value here.

If this is the case, his 2pair/set hands have pretty much the same hand strength as his weak flushes. Given that Ac and Kc have been excluded from his range, there aren't too many combo's of the remaining clubs in his opening range that have taken this line post.

Hence, the question remains: "Why would I possibly want to check this river?"

i think its just the other way round
he rarely has twopair+(his range is capped) and if he c/c flop and turn with pair+draw/combodraw/draw with 1 over/(and the obv one pair hands) he will not c/f flushes OTR when he hits regardless of what you rep cause he knows you will shove river frequently as a bluff. you said you thought he was a winning regular and thats why you choose to barrel, flop/turn. fine with me obv.
the rivershove is still +EV cause you fold out worse made hands that take a potcontrol line and have to fold river but you beat these hands anyway hitting your 5outer.
since he folded a flush the result of your bluffshove are more +EV and you are right but imo its really odd to think that he folds a flush OTR after taking this line.
just to be clear, if i had air (<Qx) i'd prolly shove river.

you say it looks strong but he knows that you can be wide and choose sizing that sets up a fine tripple barrel.
imo it just makes no sense to take this line and hope he folds the ~3rd-5th nuts OTR.

I should probably clarify by saying that it was a value shove, but its very rare that a reg will check the flop in this spot with a hand like Qx9c(not debating whether or not checking the flop is correct) which weights his range a little more towards non-club hands. Sure, he still definitely has some clubs in his range, and probably calls those on the river a decent amount of the time, but I think its probably rarer that he will show up with a medium club given action in this case.

I dunno, maybe this thread is now overanalytical. I quess this is a marginal/maniac float, which (in this case) worked out perfectly!

folding river seems absurd, his range is polarised as hell. i don't see how we can fold after taking a bluff-catching line and basically rivering the nuts. we lose to exclusively QxKc, KxKc and AxAc, compared to the huge number of bluff combos because our hand looks like nothing!

It's easy to say this now but I'd call river vs players I think are good enough to turn over bluffs. I still like betting the flop more than playing the hero guessing game.

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