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05-12-2009 , 04:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHFunkii
graduation soon
poker as a profession?
tut tut, looks like rain
Harvard graduate
tournament professional
sounds familiar
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05-12-2009 , 04:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaniac
Harvard graduate
tournament professional
sounds familiar
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05-12-2009 , 04:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond18
Got up to about 140k. Took me a year to clear it from the 6 week period of 2007 WSOP from which it started.
I started reading this and I was like that was a really ****ty haiku
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05-12-2009 , 04:34 AM
one last limerick:

PJ made us five hundred K plus
won two bracelets, whats the big fuss
martine won london
dont step to us son
all your money are belong to us
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05-12-2009 , 04:47 AM
daut, stick to poker imo

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaniac
Harvard graduate
tournament professional
sounds familiar
there once was a man named todd terry
whose posts made him seem quite contrary
but he won some money
and posted some funny
and we soon saw that he wasn't scary
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05-12-2009 , 04:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHFunkii
daut, stick to poker imo



there once was a man named todd terry
whose posts made him seem quite contrary
but he won some money
and posted some funny
and we soon saw that he wasn't scary
my mma limericks and sonnets are so good, i ****ing suck at these poker ones lol
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05-12-2009 , 05:08 AM
So in terms of people with sick downswings how many avg buyins? My current one is pretty bad!
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05-12-2009 , 05:11 AM
Thirty K, no way
Six figures, sick figures, Noooooooo!
Never been deeper
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05-12-2009 , 07:05 AM
dttir
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05-12-2009 , 07:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdomeski
fwiw half this post agree's with seabest half doesn't imo

i also feel like the way most online structures are these days there isn't a ton of room to make mistakes post flop deep in mtt's and the bad post flop players just avoid playing post flop early on.

also there are so many ways to adjust in poker...it is next to impossible to figure out a long term optimal strategy for mtts. every 6 months there is a new hot play and playing style that people crush with, then people adjust, and then people have to figure something else out or stop winning as much.

good post though skiiiiiiier
thanks.

your post illustrates what I'm saying though. there is no reason that a hot new style should come out and crush people. the only reason that happens is because people are bad - they make large (or maybe small) mistakes and play a largely exploitive style that just happens to work in the current state of the games. they quite simply are not fundamentally good. what happens with this constant adjustment and readjustment is that playing the maximally exploitive strategy (or playing some form of exploitive strategies) is that you open up yourself to exploitation and you simply swing from one extreme to the other in this game of adjustments. when you go from one extreme to another you don't approach the optimal strategy over time. However, it is very possible to figure out game theory oriented strategies that are fundamentally sound and not open to exploitation. given how everyone is saying most people don't make mistakes, i cannot, for the life of me, understand why anyone would want to play in a way that leaves them open to exploitation when margins of error are so small.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Bibbit
Of course it's important to study the game away from the table but I still think experience against tough players is very important too.

I started taking shots at the 100r last summer. At the time I was a terrible nit and I got completely run over, and the few times I did try to steal the blinds, I'd get 3bet despite how tight I'd been playing and I folded like a girl. This experience inspired me to take a couple of days off of playing and do a bunch of math on how often I should be opening from different positions, how often to play back at 3-bets, etc. What I came up with was based on a bunch of wrong assumptions and it was still pretty bad overall but it was a hell of a lot better than what I'd been doing before. But I think if I hadn't taken those shots and been in the frame of mind to learn from it, I wouldn't have even known what to work on.

I also think that when you play against tough players you pick up on some things that are hard to put into an equation. If you look at a guy like gboro, he has such an amazing sense of when people are willing to be run over and when they've had enough. I'm sure I'll never be as good at this as he is but I think I've gotten a little better at it from experience. And finally, this is kind of obv but with enough experience, eventually you'll have some detailed reads on most of the good MTT regs. I guess my point of this rambling post is that yes doing work off the felt is crucial but experience against good players is more important than your post seems to say. Really good post though.
i don't think your post really disagrees with me. Sure taking a shot in the 100r was your tipping point but the act of playing it didn't really make you better and just opened your eyes (as I understand it).

Regardless, aren't mtt regulars pretty much the same at all levels? Aren't you playing with the same people in the 109fo and the 1kfo? Why can't you "learn from these guys" amongst a sea of fish?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAT MOOSE
eh skier i disagree... the nerds who study the math are usually pretty bad at poker... psychology is by far the most important thing, as phil ivey said, when it comes to playing cards everyone at the higher levels is about even. The math helps in shortstacked situations or whatever but most good players aren't making serious mistakes even if they don't know the optimal shoving frequency from the small blind or whatever. Just playing is all you need to become a good player, I think the rest of it (reading books, studying math, posting on forums) is just noise that doesn't really help someone become great, and might hinder their process. Look at the best players in the world, they are almost all self-taught and don't spend their time poring over hands and running extensive mathematical calcuations on whatever big word you choose to substitute.


Also daut: you said that you feel the horse owes half of his makeup to the backer even if he quits. I think that's ridiculous. Could you please explain your thoughts on that further?
welll... basically, i disagree. At this point in time it certainly does seem that way as all but a handful of people are still playing guessing games and trying to adjust and readjust and use psychology. So it is not hard to continue making many mistakes when all your opponents are making the very same ones. However as poker evolves and matures and as people actually get better in absolute terms (rather than relative to their peers) these flaws will start to show and slowly these people will fade away. I suspect most of these nerds you have in mind are likely not approaching the game correctly and their math work is far different from what I have in mind, but I may be wrong.

also i mentioned the shoving ranges in the sb solely because THEY ARE PUBLISHED IN A ****ING BOOK and it's embarrassing that people who call themselves professionals are so clueless they don't even know something when it's fed to them on a silver spoon.




also, with regards to selling makeup (i skipped over much of these posts) but has it been mentioned that if someone wants to sell makeup and the horse disagrees what's to stop the backer from simply selling interest in the horse and "continuing to back him" and acting as a middleman. The simple fact that the horse disagreeing with selling of makeup can be bypassed this easily argues in favor of being able to sell it (and having the horse remain under obligation) imo.
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05-12-2009 , 07:31 AM
i just want to add, since this always comes up when discussing gto, that it is possible that many mtt regs out there are more +EV than a gto player would be because they maximally exploit the leaks of players at their table. Of course there are situations where you should deviate from gto too. The problem is that everyone is saying that there are no edges left, yet no one is playing perfectly and everyone constantly points out the "top" players making massive mistakes. I think the no edges thing is just a mask for people's mediocrity. On top of all that, people build these styles around the people they are playing with and assume their strategy is good, which it often is not with the sole exception of the games they played at the time.
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05-12-2009 , 08:36 AM
Seabeast is certain
Winning twelve flips per tourney
Defines excellence


Psychology's key
Says guy oblivious to
Beth Shak's performance


Skier doesn't play
Enough tourneys to realize
How stupid they are


Lengthy posts by Daut
Really just a hidden brag
That he backs Amak

Last edited by Todd Terry; 05-12-2009 at 08:44 AM.
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05-12-2009 , 09:29 AM
Grind, keep moving up
'Til you spend all day stalking
Guy Laliberte
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05-12-2009 , 10:42 AM
I have read this whole thread....

Cliff's notes:

Skier is smart.
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05-12-2009 , 10:49 AM
This a portion of an article I was going to publish but decided not to...it is certainly not cleaned up, but this forum has shown such interest in these topics that...well here you go.......

(from "the ugliness", by eric haber)

"....Before the legislation, there were quite a number of players who were making good money in mtts. Some of them were good players, and some were just average to poor players who were simply better than the casual player. The problem was that these players, who were not very good, yet were winning players, made certain life choices and self-assessments based on these results. The disappearance of the casual hopeless player after the legislation set in motion a very nasty chain of events for these folks; and the real nasty part of it is that these events took quite some time to materialize.

The thing that we must remember is that the legislation did not instantly remove the casual player from the fields. Likewise, the development of training sites and increased education did not instantly improve the players who utilized them. Rather, this was a slow moving transition from an average field of 50% hopeless casual players and 50% decent to good players, to one of 10% hopeless casual players. Obviously these %’s are arbitrary and just examples, but I think you get the point.

So what happens to these poor/decent players who have dropped out of college, turned pro, quit their jobs, or whatever, who were not good players, but merely good enough to beat the casual mtt player of the prelegislation era? Well, it isn’t pretty.


The first thing to remember is that, again, it takes a large sample size of tourneys before realistic conclusions can be drawn about a players profitability. The problem is that all of these players know this, so the first downswing is simply attributed to variance. These players know they are good (they really are not, but they do not know better, so they are actually being truthful with themselves), so they just keep plugging away.

The next downswing is usually attributed to bad luck, bad calls by other players, rigged sites, whatever. They accept some downswing due to variance, but this extended downswing has got to be a joke of some kind! They used to win, and they have not gotten worse, and it will all turn around!!

Unfortunately, the endgame is not pretty. In a perfectly rational universe, these players would realize that the game has simply gotten harder, that they have not kept up or cannot keep up with the learning curve of the regulars, and either move down in limits to where they can compete favorably, or quit the game professionally and return to school/work etc.

The reality, though, is that a number of these players, feeling left with no other options, resort to unethical behavior at best, and criminal behavior at worst, to attempt to survive in the existence they have created for themselves. I have unfortunately seen way too many examples of this first hand, and in some cases these actions were fairly predictable. I do not cite these examples as a way to humiliate people. I have been asked to share the names of these people on many forums, but that is not my style. Additionally, I genuinely feel bad for these folks, as they were drawn into a game where they thought they could succeed, and due to circumstances beyond their control in some cases, they became losing players, and became trapped in a world of disbelief.

I share some of these examples with you, in case you are one of these people who are in danger of going off the deep end, to hopefully see some of the signs in advance so you can think better of it. Additionally, I want to show what can happen to otherwise honest people (I think), when their delusions get the best of them and they get stuck in the quicksand of a failing endeavor.

1. Players, backed in mtts, transfer stake money from their account to another account (wife friend etc) in an attempt to play cash games. If they win, they replace the borrowed money to the account after cashing out the profits. If they lose, they either disappear, apologize, or at the most extreme, pretend the money is still in their account for as long as possible until it is discovered.

2. Players, backed in mtts, realizing that transferring money from their account will set off red flags, play hu sngs with a second account, dumping the money to that player, then play cash games on the second account as previously described.

3. Player backed in mtts, taking example 2 to the extreme, doesn’t bother using the 2nd account to play cash games. He just dumps money heads up, then cashes it off the 2nd account, $200 a day, every day, for a whole year, while reporting very small losses in mtts to his backer.

(Keep in mind that all of these players were winning, semi well known players for a long time)

4. Player in makeup seeks backing from another person and multi-accounts.

5.Player wins money in live event, but not enough to warrant a payout, then simply steals it rather than give to the backer. Crude and simple but still efficient.


5. This is perhaps the coup de gras:

Player backed at live events, after losing a few legitimately, simply pockets a whole bunch of buyins, and actually reports chip counts at the breaks for a few hours before inventing a bustout hand. A few get reported to cardplayer lol. When called upon for receipts, he claims they were lost, and when asked to get copies from the cage, finally has to come clean.

I could go on and on, and I am sure there are far more creative things going on, but this is what happens to normally honest people (are they?..maybe I am naïve) when they become losing players. Remember that these changes do not take place overnight, and people should be very honest with themselves about their games before risking becoming one of these lost souls.

Sorry to bring all of this negativity, but it is part of the state of poker nowadays, and I feel it is important to share it with the community."
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05-12-2009 , 11:06 AM
this thread read-worthy?
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05-12-2009 , 11:09 AM
sheets owns
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05-12-2009 , 11:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_5
i just want to add, since this always comes up when discussing gto, that it is possible that many mtt regs out there are more +EV than a gto player would be because they maximally exploit the leaks of players at their table. Of course there are situations where you should deviate from gto too. The problem is that everyone is saying that there are no edges left, yet no one is playing perfectly and everyone constantly points out the "top" players making massive mistakes. I think the no edges thing is just a mask for people's mediocrity. On top of all that, people build these styles around the people they are playing with and assume their strategy is good, which it often is not with the sole exception of the games they played at the time.
I am sorry but I really think this should be printed and on everyone's desk.

Please stick to your cash games skier. I do not want you anywhere near mtts.
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05-12-2009 , 11:10 AM
sheets, examples are so awful for you, but i couldnt not laugh after the conversation in MC. so seeck, so seeck mahn
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05-12-2009 , 11:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by prolax13
this thread read-worthy?

probably one of the best threads ive read on this site

and obviously my opinion means everything lol
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05-12-2009 , 11:55 AM
At least give us the name of the player who reported fake bustout hands to CardPlayer.
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05-12-2009 , 11:58 AM
hahah i know who it is! but i'll never tell
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05-12-2009 , 12:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Terry
At least give us the name of the player who reported fake bustout hands to CardPlayer.
Christian Harder Eliminated in 4th Place ($571,965) Bertrand Grospellier Eliminated in 3rd Place ($776,245)
Posted: Sat, Apr 25, 09, 2:59 PM

Christian Harder moved all in from the button for 1.9 million and Ran Azor called from the small blind. Bertrand Grospellier moved all in over the top from the big blind for 2,790,000 and Azor called that as well.

Grospellier showed the best hand with A J, Harder had the next best hand with A 8 and Azor showed the worst hand with A 7.

The board came K 7 3 Q 2, however, and Azor's pair of sevens eliminated both Harder and Grospellier. Harder finished in fourth place and earned $571,965 because he had the shorter stack. Grospellier finished in third place and earned $776,245.

There will now be a short break for the money presentation.
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05-12-2009 , 12:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheetsworld
Christian Harder Eliminated in 4th Place ($571,965) Bertrand Grospellier Eliminated in 3rd Place ($776,245)
Posted: Sat, Apr 25, 09, 2:59 PM

Christian Harder moved all in from the button for 1.9 million and Ran Azor called from the small blind. Bertrand Grospellier moved all in over the top from the big blind for 2,790,000 and Azor called that as well.

Grospellier showed the best hand with A J, Harder had the next best hand with A 8 and Azor showed the worst hand with A 7.

The board came K 7 3 Q 2, however, and Azor's pair of sevens eliminated both Harder and Grospellier. Harder finished in fourth place and earned $571,965 because he had the shorter stack. Grospellier finished in third place and earned $776,245.

There will now be a short break for the money presentation.

in b4 hof
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05-12-2009 , 12:11 PM
LMAO
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