in spades first..then clubs

wrong...hearts first, then spades

even tho spades is the nut suit...
JTcc is the only hand prefered in clubs.
ill have to make a chart or something so everyone can keep up

if we get called lighter then usually that is better for us because we will have more equity vs those hands, which was show on the first page omg can you believe this !!!! so you point doesn't make sense.

everyone in this tread is a nit and has avoided looking at the math here. Omg running numbers is so scary let.

so nitty 77+ are you kidding me? w/ antes such a joke might as well blind your self out waiting for these hands. 22+ is obv a + ev shove utg everytime.

http://betting.betfair.com/annette_1...st-160108.html

shove or folds fine depends on table and image shoves nice if they can't call with the correct range

Maybe 77 is nitty... and so is AT... but KTo blows goats. A rag ace is calling so often. and so is KQo, KJo. My point is they call light enough for you to be behind, facked and dominated all the time it seems, but not as light as your suggesting.

in my recent experience villans are not folding as easily as in the past..Joey is right..A 9, QK, KJ and a lot of pairs are calling you here

new goal to get blinded out and be a nit glad people are lookiing at how different hands play in this spot real impressive. i guess all poker is just feel and senses and no math involved.

yes villain are not folding as ealiy in the past. I think this would only be true of the deeper stacks but not the stacks that are short. def will not fold pairs of 77+, but A9 they usually fold along with KQo and KJo. I duno if its just me but most people do not like to call an all in for thier tourny from an utg raise with KQ or KJ. Shoving utg prob folds alot of hands that call if we shoved from later position. Our hand looks alot strong from utg.

pretty typical tho most people do not push hands they are supposed to. shipping only 77+ and A10+ have to be huge errors. U really dont ship smaller pairs wow.

44+,A7s+,KQs,A9o+,KQo- 51.8% vs 77-48.200%

44+,A7s+,KQs,A9o+,KQo - 54.264% vs 66- 45.736% wooooozersssssssssss a whole 2.464% difference but no 77 is much better then 66.

It amazes me how no one runs these numbers ever expect for me.

not getting into math, and not reading any posts, if this is 9 handed its a fold

I think this is a good reason why shoving a hand like A9 is waaay better than K10. You're often going to get it in ahead, despite the very small edge in equity. K10, not so much, only getting called behind. As for it only being a small edge.... isn't that what we strive for as poker players is gaining that small edge?

And yes Melly, you're getting called by these hands (Ax, KQ,KJ) despite the stack sizes. I don't think the fact you're shoving UTG makes your hand look strong at all. Instead, it just looks as if you don't want to hit the blinds again and are pushing a wide range. I think people have caught on to this whole thing and are calling down lighter. A strong UTG raise from a solid stack looks strong, not a push from someone with 8BBs.

I know you've worked the numbers out and that's all and well. But math isn't everything in this game. This shove is very table dependent. If it's a nitty table I may push, but not many SSMTTs will be nitty enough for me to like it.

Oh yeah, and if you're going to completely ignore any opinion that's going to be given to you except the one that massages your ego, don't ask the f'in question in the first place.

UTG is the new button for more than a few players.

1) ok lets think some more I know that is hard for some of you here. If people behind have all stack sizes similar to mine and the people with the bigger stakcs who can call with more marginal hands are in later positions do you really think people to the right of me Utg+1 utg+2 utg+3 MP1 are really calling w/ KJ or KQ that often ???? hmmm i dont really think so bec/ there are people behind. Most people and yes even people who suck do not wnat to call someones all in with marginal KJ and KQ hands espeically bec there are players left to act.\

2) so what do you do here besides running numbers to figure out the most optimal play snap your fingers? if you say math isn't everything especially in these situations then damn dude u must be super super super goodz. simply stating your opinion does not mean you or I am right. So obviously math is the only way to figure out things in this spot. Someone give me an equation to figure out if this is +ev. I am almost positive this is.

3) It is not about ego. And yes you fall into another one of those clowns who thinks when I make a good argument means i have a huge ego and dont want anyones opinion. Your obviously a huge clown. Its pretty funny how u feel the need to go tattle in this tread about how u think I have an ego problem and dont want opinions. Obviously you do not know. CLOWN

SOME ONE SHOW ME SOME NUMBERS AND PROVE THAT THIS IS NOT + EV besides sayin no i dont do that or no i shove this. Saying those things are all good but do not prove anything.

and yes I def could be easily wrong here but no one has shown anything besides opinions previously

is it just me or does anyone think everyone else will fold some % of the time. All that is said is when you will be called, but what about the times everyone folds.

If I shove utg are u calling with KJ here for the rest of your stack. Dont think so. I dont really mind if ace rag is calling to be honest its not like being nitty and waiting for a hand will be much better then 60 40. Wait could be very very very long and while you wait you lose and lose and lose and lose and lose and lose more fold equity. And then you pick up AJ and shove and u lose to K5 bec you have no fold equity. nh gg

and if we are saying KJ and KQ call we might as well add QJ too?

Dude, you keep knocking any response you get that isn't a push. If you're comfortable with having the correct numbers given the range you've given your table, go ahead and push. Not saying your push is wrong, not my preference though. But you ARE saying everyone else is wrong. So if you can't keep an open mind to everyone else's opinions, don't bring the hand to the forum.

your stack is big enough to fold here. you can go thru the blinds and still have FE

Mind is clearly open since im looking at all the situations here. Just cause everyone on this tread says its a fold doessnt mean that it is correct. I mean look at the peoploe saying 77+ that is clearly way way way way way way to tight, so why should i assume that anyone who said that be pushing w/ K10 or even wider?? I duno tho i suck at poker.

Everyone who says this is an easy fold is def mistaken I bet its a lot closer then you think.

Fold. Here is a good download that helped me drastically improve my short stack game http://members.cox.net/wastrel333/Pushbot%20Charts1.pdf. This is a link to pushbot charts, print them off and read them over.

It will fold out a good % of the time. Pushing UTG decrease likelihood of being called with 8 to act behind IMO, and you won't be in good shape when it happens. You have just enough chips to take the blinds one more time. You'll be able to find a spot with just as much equity pushing from LP given the higher likelihood of a fold out. If this table was 6 or 7 handed or if you had just a few k less in your stack, I'd be more apt to push. Like you said earlier, it's close, but I'm still foldin.

ya I looked at that for awhile what does it say to do with K10 here? just wanna make sure I am understanding it correctly. thanks

It says fold unless you have an M of less than 2.

Yeah, it looks like you'd have to be in MP at a tight table with your M to push according to the chart. And not until the CO at a loose table.

just to make sure how many BB is an M of 2? I just looked at it and it doesnt have anyting for KTo utg. I plugged this into sit n go wizard and it said only 77+ AJ+ which can not be right. This chart seems really tight also if im looking at it correctly. How do you know this chart is what is correct also?

m is like 3.4 right? is this chart for antes or no antes? huge difference ?? obv without antes this is not even close to a shove. It must be without antes bec this totally refutes some of annette's ranges for shoving utg.


http://betting.betfair.com/annette_1...st-160108.html

An M of two would be a 14,400 stack. It looks like this chart is a little looser than SngWizard as A10 off is a shove, but not A9. 66 isn't a shove at a tight table. What I think these charts take into account that straight up equity against a range doesn't is the possibility of foldouts. Pushing UTG decreases this likelihood, therefore making it -cEV. Here's my numbers aren't everything, situations help dictate things argument.

M takes into account antes and the chart goes off M, so I'm thinking it does.

Was this table 9 handed?