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JJ in SB on the bubble JJ in SB on the bubble

06-13-2008 , 01:12 AM
What do you do here? I've been pretty tight (or rather card dead) and only picked up blinds and antes once in the last 4 or 5 rounds, but mainly because of bigger stacks to my right constantly playing hands.

Pre-flop raiser in this hand has seen about 20-25% of flops. This is right on the bubble - 256 left, 252 get paid. I'll post what I did after I see some responses, although I'm pretty sure I know what I'll hear.

PokerStars Game #18101611778: Tournament #91349918, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level XVI (1500/3000) - 2008/06/13 - 00:49:55 (ET)
Table '91349918 61' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: canela66 (66820 in chips)
Seat 2: Ducattikid (14335 in chips)
Seat 3: the_pursoot (182538 in chips)
Seat 4: EddieOB1554 (59540 in chips)
Seat 5: Avery01 (38382 in chips)
Seat 6: jomil21 (17632 in chips)
Seat 7: --tx-- (30736 in chips)
Seat 8: emglow (98695 in chips)
Seat 9: reggg (17250 in chips)
Everybody posts the ante 300
Avery01: posts small blind 1500
jomil21: posts big blind 3000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Avery01 [Jh Jc]
--tx--: folds
emglow: raises 6000 to 9000
reggg: folds
canela66: folds
Ducattikid: folds
the_pursoot: folds
EddieOB1554: folds
Avery01:
JJ in SB on the bubble Quote
06-13-2008 , 01:23 AM
Welcome to the forum . Might be an idea to convert the hand next time, you'll get more feedback because it's easier to read.

This is a shove all day as far as I'm concerned. With about 13BB you can't wait around for aces, get it in!

Edit: Bubble is meaningless with such a large field size. Winning this hand will give you an excellent chance to get deep in the tournament. Folding to make it to the cash is very -EV in the long term. Remember that one first place is equal to about ten 9th place finishes. (and please say you didn't call, calling is unthinkable lol).

Last edited by zedveron; 06-13-2008 at 01:46 AM.
JJ in SB on the bubble Quote
06-13-2008 , 01:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zedveron
Welcome to the forum . Might be an idea to convert the hand next time, you'll get more feedback because it's easier to read.

This is a shove all day as far as I'm concerned. With about 13BB you can't wait around for aces, get it in!
+1, no doubt about it.
JJ in SB on the bubble Quote
06-13-2008 , 01:57 AM
Thanks for the welcome. How do I convert the hand?

BTW, here is my thinking during the game:

A call is pointless. What would I do if an overcard comes on the flop? I'm out of position after the flop and have no idea how to proceed if I see an over. Nowhere near enough chips left to play it like that. To me, it's either shove or fold, so now I have to ask myself, "do I want to cash, or do I want to win?"

Some things I didn't consider, but certainly should have (I'm a bit new at this):

If I shove, I'm giving him nearly 2:1 to call. What is his real range of hands there? Is he playing big stack poker and raising on the bubble just to accumulate chips? My image is very tight cause I've been card dead, will he lay down his hand when he's getting 2:1 or does he want action? I've seen him call raises with weak hands when the stack size was about half mine, but I would have called with his stack size too.

If I fold, then I've basically decided that I just want to make the money and have to fold nearly every hand from this point until the money. Do I really want to play like that? I've been on a horrible run lately and would like to get some of my money back, but I'll never win a tourney thinking like that.

Anyway, I'll wait for some more responses, although the first two have been right in line with what I thought I'd see. If I figure out how to convert the hand to a more readable format, I'll post it all in one of the responses.
JJ in SB on the bubble Quote
06-13-2008 , 02:06 AM
Did some searching, let me see if this works.

Poker Stars, $10 + $1 NL Hold'em Tournament, 1,500/3,000 Blinds, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

MP1: 66,820
MP2: 14,335
CO: 182,538
BTN: 59,540
Hero (SB): 38,382
BB: 17,632
UTG: 30,736
UTG+1: 98,695
UTG+2: 17,250

Pre-Flop: (7,200) J J dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to 9,000, 5 folds

Results: 10,200 Pot (10,200 Rake)
JJ in SB on the bubble Quote
06-13-2008 , 02:59 AM
Welcome, I shove this all day.
JJ in SB on the bubble Quote
06-13-2008 , 05:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avery01
Pre-flop raiser in this hand has seen about 20-25% of flops.
Good to know, but this number isn't as important as his preflop raise percentage. If he 25/3 this becomes a lot more marginal than if he is 25/15 (in case you don't know, these number represent VPIP/PFR). Raises from players that limp a ton of hands but rarely raise scare the hell out of me.

That said, I'm still shoving this.
JJ in SB on the bubble Quote
06-13-2008 , 08:59 AM
I'd shove but how do you come up with giving him 2:1 to call? Unless I'm just completely missing something or your talking about something else.

You are asking him to risk over a 1/3 of his chips and you have taken the position away from him. Its a good move.
JJ in SB on the bubble Quote
06-13-2008 , 09:02 AM
you have to shove this.

bubble be damned.
JJ in SB on the bubble Quote
06-13-2008 , 09:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rippi
I'd shove but how do you come up with giving him 2:1 to call? Unless I'm just completely missing something or your talking about something else.

You are asking him to risk over a 1/3 of his chips and you have taken the position away from him. Its a good move.
7200 in the pot from blinds and antes. His 9000 makes it 16200, my 9000 makes it 25200. I have less than 30k after calling his bet, so when I shove, it makes the pot almost 52k. He has to call about 29k more, so he's getting almost 2:1. Technically, he's getting 1.8:1, but pretty close to 2:1 to call my shove. Unless my thinking is way off??
JJ in SB on the bubble Quote
06-13-2008 , 09:14 AM
Poker Stars, $10 + $1 NL Hold'em Tournament, 1,500/3,000 Blinds, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

MP1: 66,820
MP2: 14,335
CO: 182,538
BTN: 59,540
Hero (SB): 38,382
BB: 17,632
UTG: 30,736
UTG+1: 98,695
UTG+2: 17,250

Pre-Flop: (7,200) J J dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to 9,000, 5 folds, Hero raises to 38,082 and is All-In, BB folds, UTG+1 calls 29,082

Flop: (81,864) 3 3 K (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: (81,864) 7 (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: (81,864) A (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: 81,864 Pot (81,864 Rake)
Hero showed J J and LOST (-38,382 NET)
UTG+1 showed K T and WON (+81,864NET)
JJ in SB on the bubble Quote
06-13-2008 , 09:16 AM
bummer you didnt win. thems is the breaks.

when you have 10xbb folding JJ is a mistake.
JJ in SB on the bubble Quote
06-13-2008 , 09:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by areaman
bummer you didnt win. thems is the breaks.

when you have 10xbb folding JJ is a mistake.
Yeah, somehow losing a hand makes you wonder if it was the right move. I need to get better at thinking through hands, but I'm working on it. Although, many would say that no thought is needed with this hand. I think JJ is too vulnerable to be a no thought hand, but when the blinds are that high, maybe it is a no thought hand.
JJ in SB on the bubble Quote
06-13-2008 , 09:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avery01
7200 in the pot from blinds and antes. His 9000 makes it 16200, my 9000 makes it 25200. I have less than 30k after calling his bet, so when I shove, it makes the pot almost 52k. He has to call about 29k more, so he's getting almost 2:1. Technically, he's getting 1.8:1, but pretty close to 2:1 to call my shove. Unless my thinking is way off??

No, you're correct.

You made the right play. He made a stupid call IMO. I bet that guy lost on his chips later on.
JJ in SB on the bubble Quote
06-13-2008 , 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avery01
... I think JJ is too vulnerable to be a no thought hand ...
There are only 3 better hands in the whole of holdem land. JJ is beating everything else. That money in the pot is rightfully yours, take it.
JJ in SB on the bubble Quote

      
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