Rather than having random threads pop up every week about various Instructional Websites, let's keep thoughts and reviews to this thread.

Here's the link to the original thread:
Instructional Sites - Review

So, posting will continue in this thread, right?

Well,
personally I can recommend sngicons. The guys are pretty good from what I saw.
z32 really improved over the time when it comes to commentary. In his first videos he gave advices like "Here I win the pot because i'm good", but the newer ones are pretty good - the one with spacegravy was the best by far.
Fiery is my favorite, cause I like his style and he keeps explaining nearly everything through his entire videos. Content-wise the best videos on the site.
bigjoe is ok, his instructions are rare and he sometimes doesn't explain WHY he is doing something.

In a month or two i'll get a stox-membership for a year.
Anyone already at stox? How are the SNG-Videos?

I agree, the vids are great (Z32 and FieryJustice). However, BigJoe2003 doesn't explain much at all and therefore his vids are less valuable.

Hello all,
I was writing a post in thread
http://forums.twoplustwo.com/showthr...light=sngicons
but this one has been closed.
So I suppose this is the right place to post my comments.
Thread started with magnus1092 defining sngicons a waste of money because of many losing players teaching there.
I decided to do some deeper analysis on that, and that's what I found out:

--- This is the original answer to magnus' initial post:
Magnus, interesting post here.
I think that it should be filled with data.
So.. let's analize the point of view of a user that is paying sngicons to improve his sit & go's game.
I found out there are 141 videos (today , 7/12/2007).
Let's see who are the coaches.
4 Videos are from AJunglen, and are relative to MTT. He seems a very good player in MTT. I perhaps signed to improve in sngoes, but, having some extra is good. However, he blocked sharkscope, but it seem that his +6% ROI will produce a negative profit, considering at higher stakes he has a -35% ROI. I think that a coach should not block access to his stats. Eventually should explain 'I suck at STT, I'm good at MTT and that's what I coach'. These 4 videos are 2.84% of the total.
27 Videos (19.15% share) are from BigJoe2003. It seems a good player. But I should remark that, in a +195,000 run in 16,000 sngo 9-handed games , he experienced 2 big downswing: ~70,000 on ~1,500 games and ~85,000 in ~2,500 games.
Now, considering that he has 2,093 #1 position, 1,857 #2 and 1,805 #3, 10,215 out of the money (10 sit missed from sharkscope here), I runned some ROI Simulation.
His average stake is $346, so I can run on $315+20, and results should be approssimate but good.
Running simulation on this data on the long run (in a window of 1 million games, that is a sample 50 times bigger than bigjoe 'history'), his ROI could be in the range (-0.5% - +8%), considering all the 16,000 games 'windows'. Of course most of time it would be 4%. According to that data, I should define bigjoe 'good', maybe 'great', for his results but surely not 'solid'.
44 Videos (31.2%) are from FieryJustice.
His stats on sharkscope is a disaster (2,388 -$21 $301 -5% -$51,339). But quite all his videos are for MTT and he seems doing very good there.
I stop one moment and read again the title in my mozilla's window: " SNGIcons.com, the premier SNG Iinstructional site on the Internet " .. ok, ok.. it seems I paid for SNG, but I will become a MTT monster after learning from that guys. Just modify the title. However, I really respect FieryJustice for his live results. But he doesn't train for live games there.
4 Videos (2.84%) are from Pudge. Good stats, seem a very solid player. Why give him just a 2.84% share ?
62 videos are from Z32Fanatic.
His stats are:
4,463 -$5 $187 0% -$23,029 on Pokerstars
11,747 $3 $165 2% $31,498 on Fulltilt
It's unuseful to make any comments on pokerstars.
But.. what about Fulltilt ?
He had a +~37,000 up in the first ~2,400 games, then about 10,000 games where he did a -~5,000 results. Who can consider him a winning player ?? 'Their' spacegravy told in his blog: 5,000 games are good to identify the kind of player you are. So, 10,000 are not ?
IMO the long run is longer than people usually think. Probably, one of the few players having beaten the 'long run', at least at low stakes, is spacegravy, that is perhaps one of the few guys that could be entitled to make that kind of videos.
According to spacegravy's results, at 16, the max downswing he could experience in the long run is (result achieved running a 'long run' simulation of billion games), is just 100 buyins.
But there are still not videos from him there.

I'm signed up at cardrunners and sngicons.

Cardrunners only valuable Sng video's are actionjeff's the rest are pretty much useless. They really need to get someone decent in there to be honest because jackal just doesn't do it for many of us.

Sngicons is great, especially now they've signed up spacegravy. However bigjoe's video's are not only annoying but completley useless. I signed up a few days ago and have watched about 10 video's so far. However the first video I ever watched was of bigjoe and for about 4-5 minutes he didn't say a word. Then he said something along the lines of "sorry I am watching the game on tv, this this and this happens" and to top it all off there is huge interference with his mic. That really pissed me off and I wanted my money back. However fanatic's videos are full of insight and he can also make you laugh out loud at the boring bits. There is also none of the "ouuu i can't say donk i must say unusual play" (or whatever the hell aba says nowadays).

I'm an icons member and would recommend it.
I like bigjoe's vids most because we got the same kind of humor, but you're right that he's not the guy who's into explaining every single action done.
Still a great site, and if you want to get more step-by-step-instructions, you will be better off with fiery's and z32's coachings.

As I am returning to the sng world I looked at the available coaching sites, read a few thread and was unsure wheater to subscribe to sngicons.
I wrote them a mail asking for a posibility of further testing. Im not someone who is looking for a cheap shot at content and offered to pay for further testing as well, I just wanted to get a further look at it.

Didn't get a response for about a week now which I think is rather poor of people who are online a lot. I wonder if my mail just got dumped or if their support is that slow?

Any one had similiar experiences?

Knut

Who did you email? The "support" email is currently mine (can be found on the main page by clicking "Questions/Comments"), but we are getting the entire site redesigned within 3 weeks and are having a 3rd party take over support.

As for "testing" we don't really do that, sorry. We have a sample video, as well as another sample on youtube, which should give people a pretty good idea of what they are getting.

Thanks for your prompt reply.

I guess that was kind of a missplacement on my part, I was writing to the cashier which I guess isn't the right spot. But I would have appreciated a reply though.

I totally understand that you don't offer further testing, I guess I'm gonna subscribe anyway. I guess payment via Pokerstars takes a little time to get the account running?

I hope I can write an accurate review soon

Yours Andreas

songheje,

your post is very difficult to follow. But, seems like you are pointing out that BigJoe is probably one of the biggest winners at his avg stakes and z32 has been a winner a high stakes as well?

Then you state spacegravy (the guy with probably the least experience of the sngicon team) is the only one to beat the 'long run' and should be making videos? Who was SG's coach?

Also, do you people realize poker and sngs existed long before sharkscope? And Z32 and FJ have beaten up sngs for years.

One more question, is the instruction in the videos bad? I just don't see how watching videos from people that have been beating high stakes sngs for years, wouldn't be worth the subscription to any low/mid stakes grinders.

Every time someone makes a post about sngicons, they point out that these guys don't have +15% ROIs at the high stakes sngs. Rarely, do the same guys critique the quality of video.

For the record I'm not trying to be a sngicon fanboy, I'm not even a member. But, here's my impression from what I've read in previous discussions:

- Bigjoe doesn't give enough analysis.
- Support sucks.
- Not enough videos being made on a weekly basis.

But, all that considered, most members seem to be very happy with their learning experience.

I wrote a long response to Magnus' rant in the prior locked thread, but it never made it, as the thread was locked right before I clicked the finalize post button. It is very obvious that the icons can play, and I would say that z32 may be the best teacher of the bunch. I'm not crushing the 300s+ so I can't tell you what kind of swongs I'll have when I get to that level, but I'll defend z32 as an excellent player who has a knack for instruction and can obviously help anyone improve below the 100$ level. I can't say how much of my improvement is from SNGICONs vs. SNGWIZ, but both have been invaluable tools. I'm fairly positive that I could make 100k+ per year even at the 16s if I played full time 40hrs/week and quit my regular job. No way I'd even think about it before I'd subscribed, I wasn't making nearly enough hourly. Right now it's sorely tempting.

Things I like about Icons:
-z32 and FJ, pretty much any video is good.
-mix of formats between live and replayer. Its pretty clear that both have their advantages and disadvantages, and I hope you all continue to use both formats.
-BigJoe's reviews of subscriber STTs viewing hole cards - hands down the best videos on the site, as he pretty much adds all the helpful commentary and hypotheticals to these vids that are sorely lacking from the vids where he's busy talking to his mom and pretty much not giving a lot of analysis.
-FJs MTTs - these are like a huge bonus, the guy obviously has a winning track record, and this certainly helps.
-z32s MTTs - thought I might as well throw these in too. Fun to watch. Also helps that he's funny.
-the site does a good job mixing it up with buyins at various levels, as well as mixing Stars and FT.
-[Edit] Forgot to add that all of the icons do a good job answering any questions regarding decisions in the videos in the SNGICON forum.

Things I don't like:
-having to pay for AJunglen's videos. I'd love to see them, but it seems out of place to offer additional pay for vids. Its kinda like he should have his own site. Still may pay for them anyway, he's that good. Remains to be decided.
-joey's lack of analysis on about 1/2 of his vids. I kind of feel that he should do more videos from a replayer since that seems to make him talk more about whats going on.


I am really looking forward to the gravy making videos every month as well. Great addition.


I guess a good general rule is that if you are making < $50/hr playing poker you could benefit significantly by subscribing. If you are making more than that, the subscription shouldn't hurt you much anyway, just add like 3 tables for a few of your sets and that should cover it.

If I had to put a dollar figure on it, I'd guess that the site has made me an additional $10-$15/hr, at least.

I am a member although the initial subscription cost seem a bit high (but is market rate) the $20 per month I am sure I can cover that with my part time play.

There is a definite improvement from the early vids to the more recent vids.

I have notices FieryJ vids are getting more indepth in analyis and not so much concentrated on the Math.

SpaceGravy should be a good addition as long as he can articulate his play well. so looking forward to these.

It's a thumbs up for me.

48kspectrum

The support should be much better now. Icons was born out of a half baked idea in our hotel suite at the WSOP in 06 and started out small. I'm sure everyone is familiar with the picture of bigjoe in that room, so you ought to know how organized we were at the time.

For a long time z32 and I were handling all the emails and support ourselves. Neither of us would be confused for tech guys (and Big Joe might not even know how to plug a computer in) but we did the best we could and for the most part people's problems were resolved.

Over time the site slowly grew to the point where it was overwhelming us, finally reaching a critical mass where it just made sense to hire competent support. If you contact support now, you'll get real support, not a SNG grinder. This new and improved support with the videos and insight you've come to expect should make Icons even better going forward.

I am a member at LeggoPoker.

ATM - I wouldn't recommend them for people who primarily focus on STT's as the main focus at Leggo is cash games.

However, if you are looking for instruction on 6-max nl cash games, I believe they are very good and I highly recommend them.

They have 2 free cash game videos that are about 30 minutes long and all you have to do is register to view them.

(Other than being a member and receiving private coaching from one of their instructors I'm not affiliated with the site.)

Since I sont trust anyone outside the STTf would it be possible to add some cash site reviews here, too? Besides my mistrust there's another reason - more and more STTers are switching/mixing in some ring games...

Ah ha - I beat you to the punch!

Jbrochu you forgot the link to that site! I'll post the one you gave me over AIM

http://www.leggopoker.com/affliate.cgi=Jbrochu

I don't subscribe to snicons, but I may one day.

I have played a lot of games against spacegravy and z32 and a lot of games vs snicon goupies, for lack of a better word... the guys that have blogs there, like bones, noodle, etc. These guys are good. I don't necessarily like seeing them at my tables, but when they are there, I watch them closely so I can learn from them for free... kind of.

If you think back to when you were in school, some teachers understand the material inside and out, but can't teach. Maybe this is bigjoe. Others are great teachers... sounds like Z32 and FJ. I think great teachers tend to be the people that struggled some to learn themselves and they can therefore explain things better to students.

But I remeber a post where BJ blasted another 2p2 guy for calling BJ's shove (J6o or some crap) w/ AK, on the bubble I think. Initially I thought that was a great call, and I still make calls like that (I haven't learned). But BJ went on to explain that if he folded he would have dominated the bubble and that he lost a lot of chips by making the risky call. From and ICM perspective the call was probably correct, but from a deeper level of future chips lost, it was a bad call... according to BJ, and something I would probably have never thought of on my own.

So just by watching these guys play, you should be learning from them whether there is commentary or not. You should be pausing the video, and ask yourself why did he do that? Thinking it through yourself will probably help you learn better anyway... at least I find I learn best when I am forced to think about things and figure things out on my own.

When people tell me things it is good b/c it points me in the right direction... but I have not necessarily ingrained in my brain by them telling me, but that is just how I learn. my 2 cents

LMFAO...

This would have been even funnier if you could have somehow got a rickroll in there...

SNGWiz is a great tool and the support is awesome too. They have made many of my recommendations for imrovements too.

It is also a great study tool for reviewing your HH's in addition to learning ICM. It summarizes hands to show hole cards position and stack sizes as well if you made the correct play, based on the default settings.

You can quickly review a single hand based on the cards you were dealt, or looking at your stack size to see why it changed so much up or down.

You can also paste a single hand that you copy/paste into their notepad feature, from a live game in progress, to see if you made the correct play in that one hand (although one hand after the fact)

Also I think you get a free 30 day trial period.

It took me 2 years before I finally bought an ICM tool. Needless to say I lost a lot of money in those 2 years by waiting so long. I have won a lot more and more consistantly since I bought it.

now I just need a cash game tool...

You arent taking into account that joe is very capable of saying its bad purely for metagame, even if it isnt a bad call.

For other sites, I've signed up for most of the training sites, cash and sng alike, Ill put some thoughts up:

PokerXfactor- used to be alot more sng content coming out, now its almost all mtts. Imo the sng vids were decent, but sheets commentary is marginal imo, he would drill into you that you have to play tight, but then say you should raise A7o on the co "because you have an ace and people behind probably dont have anything" He's got good advice in general but there are a pretty good amount of things you have to ignore, he's kind of results oriented in the analysis and somewhat wishy washy at times. First site I joined and it did help me a lot from a beginners standpoint, I no longer sub though because I dont think it contributes much to me anymore. Upload rate was pretty good almost always 5 vids a week, also the replayer format was pretty solid. Expensive, 125 + 25/month. Also as a sidenote the forums will quite possibly put you on lifetilt, the advice there is like 95% garbage.

SNGicons- Good, not going to write much on them since it gets the most coverage as is, low points are have probably the worst upload rate of any training site, usually like 3-5 vids every 10 days which is pretty abysmal compared to any other training site, Bigjoe live vids range from decent to absolutely terrible, which is unfortunate because he's proven that on a focused replayer vid his commentary is fantastic, Live vids just arent that good in general for sngs imo. Also early z32 vids are similar to later bigjoe vids. Positives to the site, replayer vids are great, all of the instructors are capable of providing very good analysis(the "not a sscope winner" is a ridiculous argument, I think their thought processes for sngs are better than the pxf guys and no one questions them) the cost is very reasonable(the og training sites are usually like 100+ AND a monthly fee up front as opposed to $99 then 20 a month after) The site has some issues yes but if you're just looking for sngs this is the best site out there.

LeggoPoker:

Very good new site, worth it for Bobbo and aejones vids alone. Price is very good. Multiple ways to view the videos. Almost all 6max and HU cash, if thats not your thing dont worry about this site, its got a solid cash roster though making solid vids. Good upload rate, I believe 5 a week.


Cardrunners:

Pretty much the standard cash training site, theyve really stepped their game up since they started expanding. They put up 7 vids a week and have a ton of great instructors. They have some tourney vids and some sngs(mostly from jackal) but its mostly a cash focused site. I feel they actually have too many instructors and they seem to get the low limit instructors strictly out of the UK, but really all you have to know is they have aba, cts, peachy, Taylor, Stinger, and shneids. If that doesnt get you interested I dont know what will. Like Pxf its on the expensive side but its got the best upload rate in the industry and absolutely top notch instructors.

DeucesCracked:

The site I'm by far most excited about after the 3bet merger, this is really the evolution of training sites and I think its going to be huge. Looks like they're going to have a fantastic upload rate, vids for every game, NON DRM DOWNLOADABLE VIDS, no signup fee, series of concept oriented learning courses, just wow. Theyve just started after their merger with 3bet, but im looking forward to the future from this site. No sng vids though

Pokersavvy: No signup fee at the moment, very solid upload rate, and ansky vids. Imo ansky's vids are the gem here, they have a 7 day trial might want to check it out. No sng vids here.

Stoxpoker: Havent used this one alot, good upload rate but Im kind of meh on the vids. For sngs I think its gonna be just ok, I expect scotty to put out some decent vids, other than that, ehh.

kleath,
Very informative.
thanks.

good and accurate review IMO. Look for big things from deucescracked in all types of poker.

I also recommend Beanmo's videos on Donkit/sharkscope. I know the site is never mentioned because they don't offer a coaching service per se, but the videos are decent I think.

yea thx kleath!! i'm thinking to sign up to leggo poker, theyr video seems great for 6max.. do you think that if i want to learn cash this is the best? (price/QUALITY ratio)

Free trial at the CardPlayer.com/pro site (?). Nothing good for SnGs - I'll view all the videos and see if I can pick up some info useful for SnG's in some of the many MTT movies they have, and view some of the cash, but I really want to watch SnG vid's..... The SharkScope videos are looking mighty tempting right about now.