Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand

02-22-2014 , 10:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsilver
seems like a clear 4bjam or fold decision then.

how accurate is OP's assessment of your 3bet strat?
I 3 bet/folded BvB first orbit and then 3 bet him 3 times during the next 4 hours. My turn shove is 70% of the pot and I would do that with entire range because I thought he was weak and would not call.

My only regret is not calling the clock around the 2 minute tank mark as I think that would have gotten a fold more often.
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-22-2014 , 11:38 PM
k np thnx.

Spoiler:
so that's 5 times in 4 hours. down to 6 handed live, probably orbiting once every 15-20 mins on ave. 4 hrs = ~15 orbits. so once every 3 orbits he opens and you 3bet. if OP is opening twice per orbit on ave, then you're...


3betting him once every 6 times that he opens?

seems active but not relentless, especially if you're not floating.

close, but i think OP could have found a fold in two spots (pre/riv) with A8s.

Last edited by oldsilver; 02-22-2014 at 11:46 PM.
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-23-2014 , 02:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsilver

close, but i think OP could have found a fold in two spots (pre/riv) with A8s.
lol, lol
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-23-2014 , 03:08 AM
ok, riv was typo
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-23-2014 , 03:24 AM
I was going to post this spot from my perspective but sal beat me to posting this thread. I'm in the bb with 930k and QTo and didn't have the heart to 4b/f. Gg.
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-23-2014 , 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unta8
I was going to post this spot from my perspective but sal beat me to posting this thread. I'm in the bb with 930k and QTo and didn't have the heart to 4b/f. Gg.
Another helpful illustation why SB's small 3-bet can't be viewed solely in context of whether BTN should flat or not. Unta may have been more tempted here to 4-bet against smaller SB then against larger one.
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-23-2014 , 11:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartland
Another helpful illustation why SB's small 3-bet can't be viewed solely in context of whether BTN should flat or not. Unta may have been more tempted here to 4-bet against smaller SB then against larger one.
ya but 130k over 50k is fine and much different then over 65k
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-23-2014 , 11:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by isuxatpokerbad
ya but 130k over 50k is fine and much different then over 65k
yes, i meant in context of OP's misstated post that everyone was arguing about
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-23-2014 , 01:31 PM
Wow suxatpoker rly crushes this thread
But yea flatting 3bs to try and do this post flop at 20bb is just not gonna work v well for you you forgot the times it comes q82 and you jam over his cbet and post here being like zomg bad beat
Or the times you try and float on 224 and he shoves turn you fold and just burned half you stack
Nice brag thou congrats on the score
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-23-2014 , 01:49 PM
B/4Bjam with A8s 6 handed just doesn't happen nearly as often live as it should OR as often as it does online. Had hero perceived V as less agro, he probably b/f pre and doesn't post.

The analysis has been very insightful but I do think this is a specific situation where live poker diverges from online. While the analytical play is to jam, maybe OP's question started with "is calling the 3b pre better than folding to an agro live pro?" Personally, I probably fold more often than jamming in this spot pre-flop.
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-23-2014 , 01:52 PM
Calling>folding
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-23-2014 , 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbulenc3
Calling>folding
IMO preflop for OP Push > call > fold to 3-bet.

I think it may be OK to flat 3-bet with some hands even to this sizing with position and pot odds.

I assume BB was 3-bet/folding. This might be OK if OP rarely 4-bets, but maybe better for him to flat the raise or just shove.
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-23-2014 , 03:42 PM
get thereeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-23-2014 , 04:34 PM
Shove pre. What do you do if you call and miss?
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-23-2014 , 05:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartland
there is an argument to be made that 3-bet from blinds can be interpreted slightly differently, but generally smaller 3-bets create more fold equity for 4-bet shove because 3-bettor doesn't get as good a price to call.

a lot of differences in mtt sizing is not deliberate but due to mistakes, different bet-sizing tendencies, etc. So a HJ opener shouldn't automatically think that a 2x from SB is more nutted than 3x.
the fe increase when sb s range is wider
nothing changes for 0.5 b
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-24-2014 , 04:28 AM
I got extremely lucky that the flop texture benefitted me pretty well in this spot. In the future, running through a bunch of different scenarios, taking the hand down pre is way safer and a better strategy. A8hh on the button 6 handed folding the first 3 spots is a top range hand IMO, and a 4/b to a player I respect, BUT, suspect will be 3/b light more than not is the better play.

I appreciate the feedback from everyone and I learned a valuable lesson. I am just lucky to learn and at the same time have won a nice MTT in the process.

Also, BOL to you JEFF in the future. Hope to FT with you again sooner than not, and maybe be seated to your left next time haha. You played really well to get to where you finished, but i'm sure you wanted 1st just as bad as me. GG
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-25-2014 , 02:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cicakman
4b/f all day
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartland
stop trolling
6b/f all day.

Fixed.
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-27-2014 , 03:22 AM
thread makes me happy theres still money in mtts when all the "regs" think like that about this spot
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-27-2014 , 03:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lissistinkt
thread makes me happy theres still money in mtts when all the "regs" think like that about this spot
post makes me unhappy when you're a smart kid that could/does make a contribution but has recently resorted to trolling.

exactly which part are you objecting to? the part before we had the correct blinds or after? and which opinions?

you're not best poster on this forum lissi, but you could be.
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-27-2014 , 04:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by isuxatpokerbad
button should flat very few hands on these stack depths but many people don't care and see pot odds and click call anyway (esp live! he's oi yanno) and put themselves in a bad spot.
How is it bad to flat a lot of hands here when we are getting great potodds vs a wide range while being in position. How come every tournament player thinks lol potodds while ike haxton always thinks about potodds. Not like potodds dont matter bcs we are shallow. I am assuming the blinds are like in the OP

villain is putting himself in a bad spot as well if villain thinks this way and will peel even a smallish part of his button opening range.
This is not that big of a concern actually since sb will have mostly hands with some playibility and generally the Btn flatting range calls the 3bet because it thinks it is a little better than folding to call. That could mean the Btn calls additional 2BB and thinks he will get about 2,5BB back postflop. That would mean the SB 3bet range still makes a lot of profit compared to not 3betting
This size is more or less just clowny and villain most likely saw it on the internet once and tried it out even though the situation then was probably much different and in turn he got punished.

True I guess

If he's going to make a size this small then the correct thing for him would be to do it wider and then in turn we can jam wider.

Not necassirly when he gives us such good potodds

If villain makes it 160k in this spot (better 3b sizing, although jamming is probably still better) then we're much more handcuffed and we're in more of a jam/fold mode, and we're probably less likely to jam cause it looks less likely villain is folding.

True I guess

This ain't much of a postflop game on these stacks in 3bet pots, it's going to be most profitable preflop to win the pot instead of guessing on many boards. It'll be hard to fold if we get a piece and whatever piece we get we probably won't be thrilled to get in. We also won't always stack his value hands we outdraw (QQ probably wont get it in on Axx, but we obviously go broke on 8xx) so there are some negative implied odds.

Yes we´re not printing by flatting but we still win money by flatting because we put in 2BB in a big pot where we have position and good to very good equity vs villains range

not to mention we're on a final table and ladders and icm are a thing

Yeah that might be an argument but I think mostof the things I wrote are still true
Decided to look at this post since it is from a well respected poster. Just as an example.
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-27-2014 , 04:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by betgo
Push is standard, but OP may not be an Internet reg. In general, I think people could flat more than they do here being in position. However, I think OP should push preflop, because villain is more aggressive and will get OP to fold the better hand too much postflop.

How are you going to play it the 60% of the time when you don't make a pair or a draw and he cbets?

Jeff chose a nonstandard hand to 3-bet, as he probably has to fold it to a 4-bet. Of course he may assume OP is rarely 4-betting. He probably has to push the turn, as he is OOP and doesn't want to check/fold a gutshot and overcard or overcards to some of OP's holding. Plus OP probably folds if he doesn't have an ace.
How come that betgo makes the best post itt
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-27-2014 , 10:19 AM
you are arguing the opposite of betgo who doesn't like flatting against this V, so i don't get it.

otoh if you believe A8s is good against V range and you expect him to unload the clip light post then flatting is cool. it's risky, but if BB was considering a light 4bet (bitethebulletsir!!) then everyone seemed to have a similar live read that V was wide here and aggressive - so flatting is at least viable and at best superbly profitable.

but I wouldn't be setting ranges based on V 3betting the guy immediately to his left once or twice per hour. that's bog standard, it's not relentless. i also wouldn't be surprised if V actually had AK/AQ on at least a couple of other recent 3bets. and Hero tanked for 5 minutes so it's suddenly a tough call and folding here would be an absolute disaster, so jamming pre with reads is probably a better option for Hero in an uncertain spot with payjumps. and i'm folding (pre) readless.

Last edited by oldsilver; 02-27-2014 at 10:33 AM.
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-27-2014 , 12:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lissistinkt
Decided to look at this post since it is from a well respected poster. Just as an example.
i'm just gonna disagree with what you say since i don't believe we can turn a 2.5 bb profit postflop without severe ICM implications being involved. Prove me wrong.

Last edited by isuxatpokerbad; 02-27-2014 at 12:38 PM. Reason: show me it's better then jamming too
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-27-2014 , 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lissistinkt
How come that betgo makes the best post itt
Betgo makes some excellent posts at times.
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote
02-27-2014 , 12:39 PM
lissi are you saying the u think flat>shove>fold? or are you simply trying to make an argument that flat>fold?
I won WSOPC Caesars Event #1 w/ this hand Quote

      
m