***** Betfair Poker Hand History for Game 387951673 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee, Level:5 Blinds(75/150-(no ante)) - Sunday, July 20, 20:46:37 GMT 2008
$10+$1 Turbo NL Holdem #2001965
Table 1 6-max (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of active players : 5
Seat 1: Ferglaski ( 2,485 )
Seat 3: JAGGARD ( 2,337.50 )
Seat 4: HERO ( 1,975 )
Seat 5: stevenssck ( 1,027.50 )
Seat 6: GreenKing ( 1,175 )
Tourney Level:5 Blinds(75/150-(no ante))
will12345 posts small blind [75]
stevenssck posts big blind [150]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to will12345 [ Qd, 5s ]
GreenKing folds
Ferglaski folds
JAGGARD folds
HERO goes all-in

I'm obviously on sb and shoving bb.

Can you please convert the hand. You will get more responses if you do.

FWIW I fold because there really is no reason to push here for 150 more chips but if you have a read on villian that makes it easier to push this then I guess you could push it.

If the blinds were 150/300 then I would probably think about it but I think your risking too much to gain too little in this spot.

$10+1 Turbos seems like a bad deal to me. How are the structures?

I think your push is way too loose.

what what what what what what?!

Guys, this shove is superstandard. wtf?! he is shoving 7bb effective with Q5o bvb. I wouldn't be surprised if this was unexploitable.

eh? this is super standard push folding would be uber bad. 23o here is an easy push, what are you guys missing?

Yes this push is fine. Q5o is top 50% so you are better than the avg hand, even if you didn't have Q5o this would be one of those easy shove ATC spots. NH

apparently after not having played for a week I have forgotten ICM. Never mind what I said before.
Easy push.

Actually, this is 225 more chips, and you are risking 952 (all that after posting blinds). Total ATC shove then, unless BB is a total maniac.

EDIT : and actually might still be a shove if he's a maniac anyway.

Ive had a rethink on this because I thought for some weird reason that the guy you were pushing into was Ferglaski.

As effective stacks are only around 1k then I would shove in this spot.

There is more to this than just ICM..

Does anyone care about table image these days?

Seems to me like ICM is making you forget poker is about the COMBINATION of you, your opponent and your cards. Not just your cards.

No one can really say whether a push is good here... but if what you are looking for is whether Q high is better than a blind hand, then yes, it is.

Yep. Nothing sweeter than shoving 4 hands in a row then the table sheriff says "Im not standing for this" and calls your 5th shove and you turn over Aces

okay I think I can:


Unexploitable imo. Even if they start calling you loose, they'll still not call wide enough to make most shoves -ev.
With 32o he would have to call 22+,A2+,K5+,K2s+,QT+,Q8s+,J9s+ to make it breakeven. Not even regs call this wide at this level. For the 1 sheriff you'll run into from time to time, there are thousand nits that won't call you wide enough to make you shove less than ATC here.

Unexploitable...but without an edge (0.0). Here we have our diffrent opinions of this shove. The truth in many similar cases in this forum is based on what edge did you set in Wizard? I am really interested how do you guys set it and why??

Hm... I get the explanation (I think), but what is this graph exactly ? How should we read it, and where does this come from ?

sngwizard
Y-axis: Expected value with given action (push Q5o)
X-axis: BB's Calling range

ie. no matter how wide or narrow he calls, you will make a profit over the long run.

As for edge: I set it to 0.00. I think setting it to 0.2 or so is okay in this case, but you'll still have a small range that he has to call with to make it -ev. Something like exactly between 50% and 65%. once he calls a bit wider or narrower its +ev.

Dude, come on.. I totally get that shoving here is plus EV or whatever you wanna call it, for this hand. I dont need to see a graph...

I was gonna get more into what I was thinking, but whatever.. it will just get scoffed at again.

Please, don't turn a simple bvb push into rocket-science.

This hand is a shove.

Adjusting to table dynamics is perfectly fine and obv a standard part of the game. But in this hand it doesn't really matter, because it's an (almost) unexploitable shove. When you think you got a loose image and people will call you wider, adjust your shoving range. Thats no ground-breaking theory no one ever heard of...

I wasnt saying it was groundbreaking, I was saying people don't listen.

This has pretty much already been answered, but I'll take a stab at it from a slightly different angle.

In this spot, bvb, Nash says to push the following hands:

79.8%, 22+ Qx+ J2s+ J4o+ T2s+ T6o+ 92s+ 95o+ 82s+ 85o+ 73s+ 75o+ 62s+ 64o+ 52s+ 54o 42s+ 32s

Q5o is obv well within this range. However, since Nash assumes that everyone at the table is playing perfectly (lol), the shoving ranges are usually a bit off in reality and need to be adjusted to the more likely calling ranges of the bb. Therefore, although Nash says the bb should call with:

35.0%, 33+ Ax+ K3s+ K6o+ Q7s+ Q9o+ J9s+ JTo

he probably isn't calling that light and we can drop the bottom portion of his range (since I doubt he's calling with Q7s or JTo, etc). Since we can assume that he's calling tighter than he should, we can expand our shoving range even further since we're getting called less often. So the shove with Q5 is correct here, and for that matter, one could argue that any paint is good enough to push in this spot.

Of course, this is totally read-dependent, and if we think the bb is calling close to perfectly, we can't expand our range as stated above. Q5o should still be good for a shove though, imo.

nh.

I have enjoyed both the maths and the various new-posters-backtracking-after-big-post-count-posters in a thread which is really solved entirely with that one SNG wiz graph.

thanks. I don't have SnGWiz... yet seems to be a powerful tool, but I think I'll wait until I move up at least once before investing.
is ICM trainer (and the light version) good enough to learn ICM use ?
How about that Pushbot pdf I found here ?

I have no experience with ICM Trainer. A quick search and it seems like a variation of "quiz mode" in SNG Wizard. The "lite" version seems to be just 10 quiz questions. Although undoubtly useful, I think the real value of SNGWiz is importing your own hands, seeing your errors, then playing around with the variables - stack sizes, blind sizes, calling and pushing ranges of your opponents.

And you can see that in situations like this hand, it can be "answered" by plotting graphs such as the one above. This shows that this move is (nearly always) profitable regardless of how the villain calls. It means you can confidently push without the worries that "oh my he's calling loosely", "This time he'll look me up", etc. Which some of the advice is this thread hints at.

I would say $100 and time invested in this is better than the same time and buyins for 5.5$ tourneys if you are trying to learn the game.

I would strongly recommend purchasing SNGWiz if you can afford it. It will help you move up.

To the poster above:

I do apologize. I hope the above marks your criteria for "contributing something useful".

You can see I've been registered for over 4 years with 500 posts. Do you think post count is a consideration?

You can download SNGWiz now and have a 30 day trial - from memory Im pretty sure its a fully functioning SNGWiz.

Please, download it, go through the tutorial then load up a few hand histories and work through them, it will change your game.