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How to play KK here How to play KK here

03-24-2010 , 08:28 AM
It was the Fifty-Fifty at FTP
Average was 8.500, about 450 Players left

How should I have played that? Should I have pushed after the Turn?
The other player did really stupid stuff before so it was hard to put him on a hand. He went All-In two hands before wit 53s from EP.

Full Tilt, NL Hold'em Tournament, 120/240 Blinds, 25 Ante, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG+1: 8,360
UTG+2: 6,149
MP1: 5,627
MP2: 22,301
CO: 23,205
BTN: 7,364
SB: 7,546
BB: 10,849
Hero (UTG): 6,000

Pre-Flop: (360) K K dealt to Hero (UTG)
Hero raises to 720, 6 folds, SB calls 600, BB folds

Flop: (1,680) A J T (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (1,680) Q (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero bets 720, SB calls 720

River: (3,120) T (2 Players)
SB bets 6,081, Hero calls 4,535

Results: 12,190 Pot
SB showed Q Q and WON 12,415 (+6,560 NET)
Hero mucked K K and LOST (-5,975 NET)
How to play KK here Quote
03-24-2010 , 08:33 AM
a little more on turn so that you can make a bigger river bet

aside from that it was just a cooler

have to get it in on the river
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03-24-2010 , 08:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssnyc
a little more on turn so that you can make a bigger river bet

aside from that it was just a cooler

have to get it in on the river
yep....and 567 pre is sufficient
How to play KK here Quote
03-24-2010 , 09:59 AM
Unless you have a terrible image vs. villain or he's drooling, seems ambitious to think about getting 2 streets of value against QJ or AT considering you raised UTG and are now betting the 4-straight board. There's 24 river cards that make you vulnerable or put a chop on the board (12 AQTJs + 10 clubs + 2 remaining kings) so more than 50 percent of the time you won't have the nuts on the river any longer, plus all of those cards either help or scare villain. So even if villain doesn't improve his actual hand, he's probably not going to pay off much on the river most of the time.

I think with 33% of your stack in the pot on the turn, it's a shove, especially since you have the Kc and you can't get freerolled by like KJcc. I guess you can just bet normally and hope for a good river card and a braindead opponent that'll pay you off but I'd rather force every single player to make a mistake if they call the shove.
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03-24-2010 , 11:05 AM
Just asking

Is there a bet big enough for the flop? I mean if we shove the flop, can you get him off his Qs? Or is that what we want?

no torching please!
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03-24-2010 , 11:19 AM
Very simple explanation:

As played, you put 720 chips in while ahead on the turn and 4.5k in on the river where you were crushed.

If you just shove the 5k on the turn, and he still calls with QQ, you still lose the hand but instead you put all 5000 chips in the pot while having a significant advantage.
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03-24-2010 , 11:22 AM
Thinking about it again, I think I should have pushed ALL-IN after the Turn.
With a Flush Draw or two pair possible for my opponent, I should have let him make the decision after the turn, although I doubt he would have folded, since he played really badly before.
Here is what he did two hands ago which probably made me play the hand the way I did.

Full Tilt, NL Hold'em Tournament, 120/240 Blinds, 25 Ante, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

MP1: 8,410
MP2: 9,812
CO: 5,677
BTN: 22,591
SB: 23,375
BB: 7,774
UTG: 3,638
UTG+1: 10,899
Hero (UTG+2): 5,225

Pre-Flop: (360) Q A dealt to Hero (UTG+2)
UTG raises to 3,613, 3 folds, MP2 raises to 9,787, 4 folds

Flop: (7,586) Q 7 8 (2 Players)

Turn: (7,586) 6 (2 Players)

River: (7,586) A (2 Players)

Results: 7,586 Pot
MP2 showed 6 6 and LOST (-3,613 NET)
UTG showed 5 3 and WON 7,811 (+4,198 NET)

Another question: I was thinking of laying my hand down after the river because I felt like I am probably beat. Against another player, I might have laid it down.
What what you guys have done?

Last edited by Toto-BSC; 03-24-2010 at 11:34 AM.
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03-24-2010 , 11:59 AM
Why's everybody so results oriented? We're trying to get a call on the turn, not a fold. What flush draw do we think the villain has, exactly, with the A, K, and Q all out of play? Shoving makes no sense.

The flop check was good, the turn bet was good, and the river call... I have no idea if a fold is possible there.
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03-24-2010 , 12:12 PM
Anything that's calling on the turn besides an OOP stone bluff or like A9o is drawing live, and as I said, there's so many bad river cards when villain is indicated to be pretty clowny and will probably donk river a lot for value sometimes when he hits and as a bluff sometimes. Not really fun playing a guessing game like that.

As OP said villain got in with 35s previously, and that we didn't bet flop, I don't think it's a stretch to say he could have all of the connected clubs still in his range on the turn. Not even including the one-gappers and other random clubs.

River with a clowny range that includes a lot of 2pair essentially turning into bluffs:

Board: Ac Qc Jh Ts Td
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 62.500% 45.00% 17.50% 27 10.50 { KcKs }
Hand 1: 37.500% 20.00% 17.50% 12 10.50 { QQ-TT, AJs+, K9s+, QJs, AJo+, KJo+, QJo, JTo }
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03-24-2010 , 01:28 PM
OK I did misread the bet size on the turn, it should have been bigger in the 1100 range. But shoving is right out.
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03-24-2010 , 01:34 PM
pushing all in on the turn is silly and results oriented
How to play KK here Quote
03-24-2010 , 01:37 PM
Yeah don't shove turn.I think river might be a fold.Do we think villain ever shows up with worse than a K here+he'll crush us a lot
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03-24-2010 , 01:38 PM
shoving turn is ******ed... preety gay river and i can see wanting to fold yet still calling
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