This might be more of a psychology question, but this seems to come up repeatedly in the Stars 12/180 turbo for me.

As any of you who play this crapshoot undoubtedly know, you can't win this thing just by playing great hands generally. The blinds go up super fast, and it's not unusual for everyone at a table to be in the red zone as the FT gets close.

Last night, we were down to 2 tables, mostly through some stealing and a couple of hudge suckouts, the usual. I sharkscoped the 3 biggest stacks. 2 were uberfish, but the 3rd, who was 2 to my right, had a good ROI, so I knew he knew what he was doing somewhat.

Anyway, this guy to my right starts making some raises in lp, and I'm thinking he must be raising pretty light, both because of how often he's doing it, and how tight people are playing. In other words, sounds like a re-stealing situation, right?

Well, long story short, I keep waiting for that "perfect opportunity" to resteal, and of course it never comes. Soon, I don't have enough of a stack to even make a re-steal, and I continue to be card dead until I Broomcorn my way into 7th.

Anyone else have trouble pulling the trigger on a re-steal? I've identified two self-defeating thoughts that I think stop me from doing what I "know" I should: 1), the fear that this time he's 'got it,' and 2) pretty soon I'll get some big hands myself and good things will happen.

the better the player with a bigstack is, the better the opportunity to resteal if he's often raising in LP... if you have a slight feeling he might be stealing there, just go for it once...

when some resteals of yours succeeded you will find yourself getting more and more comfortable of choosing the correct spot to pull it off....

Thanks for the comment. Yeah, I think a lot of my bad experiences have come from trying it against horrible players, whose raising and calling reraise ranges are too close to make a resteal profitable.

In a 4/180 win last year, I tried a resteal vs. a seemingly good aggro player who was raising often. He was in ep, but I sort of cheated because my resteal was with 55 (so I'm in ok shape vs. much of his calling range). Still, he folded, and I think that really thwarted the guy's momentum and got me going. But the true resteals (with garbage) are much harder, since you have to be surer of a fold.

Like you don't always steal with 72 when you resteal you don't have to have a trash hand. But hands like 67s 8J 33, are usually good enough to attack a late position raiser.

you also want to send a message: don't do this with my blind buddy. Or sometimes: not when I'm on the button buddy!

and like lemming said, when you do it more often, it gets more routine. But make sure the raiser has a very high steal percentage (I advice using pokertracker for this) and look for spots where he is likely to be weak (late position open raises)... but that is obvious.

you can also mathematically justify your resteals.

If villain is open raising 100% of his hands in the cutoff,
and is only calling with 77+,ATs+,KJs+,ATo+,KJo+

he will only call you 10% of the time.

so in this case when the resteal increases your stack more than 10% you are good.

that's not the complete math, but thats what it boils down too.

My rationalization has sometimes been "Well, this is a perfect opportunity to resteal, but I have 82o. At least let it be a suited connector or something." Last night, I was getting some very unattractive hands when the villian was raising, but I still think I should have done it. In a HSMTT thread a while back, Jason Strasser said that if you pick the right time to resteal, the hand you have shouldn't matter. I've been trying to follow that line of thought, without much success yet.

are you talking about restealing only when in the big blind or also in other spots?

oh.. and you have to realize that the raiser might be aware that hes raising alot. If he is good and suspects you of restealing he will be calling very light. Thats why I advice to have some kind of hand. 82o is good also, but you have to be sure that villain will fold a certain % of the time.. like i said above when discussing the math.

One thought is to make your decision before the action gets to you. Have an idea who the loose raisers are that you'd like to find an opportunity to resteal against. When you see your cards, before people start to act, decide which players you're prepared to resteal against. You can do this before you see your cards if you think it's correct to resteal any 2 against a very loose opponent.

If waiting till the last minute to decide leads to a panic-fold, use the available time to sell yourself on restealing. Then, if the targeted stealers don't raise, you can fold.

This is basically my advice as well, except before my cards are dealt I decide the minimum my hand has to be to try a resteal. So, for example, if I'm on the button and your okay laggy player is in the cutoff, I'd tell myself I'll re-raise him with any ace, any king, any pair, JTo +, etc. Hence I'm not worried about making the re-steal, as I had decided that already. I've found this sort of planning has worked very well for me.

restealing has become so common that 4bet shoving wide makes me feel so goot!

In the $12/180s, though, blinds are never deep enough for a four-bet. The three-bet should be all-in. You may have a wide calling range ahead of our three-bet range, but that is why the poker gods created suck outs

oh I know...which is why I hate playing turbos.

I was just illistrating that if you arent capable of 3betting light then u are behind the game.

All restealing carries a risk because even the most persistent of raisers come up with a hand now and again and the problem with the $12 180s is, you quite often give the pre flop raiser great odds to call your resteal (which again, because of the nature of the $12 180s, your resteal is nearly always going to be a shove).

Reshoving will become second nature with practice. The more you do it, the easier you will start seeing reshoving situations. You will get called from time to time but dont let this put you off because restealing is very important in the $12 180s. Sitting waiting for a hand is not a good strategy in the turbos. Agression is key to the game and one of your tools is the resteal.


Open up a few tables tonight and practice - write down on a sheet of paper the range your going to reshove with and look for opportunities. The thing about the $12 180s is, even when you get called with your fingers in the till, you are often never really that far behind.

How do I overcome restealing fear? Like this!!

PokerStars Game #16291293347: Tournament #81875982, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2008/03/27 - 15:24:57 (ET)
Table '81875982 101' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: gjmits10 (10842 in chips)
Seat 2: ainutep (13970 in chips)
Seat 3: Krrr87 (15179 in chips)
Seat 4: Noubliez (7376 in chips)
Seat 5: Cloney1975 (9733 in chips)
Seat 6: tinze (9515 in chips)
Seat 7: 4acres (4205 in chips)
Seat 8: MrJovelli (1125 in chips)
Seat 9: regnarkicker (5148 in chips)
gjmits10: posts the ante 25
ainutep: posts the ante 25
Krrr87: posts the ante 25
Noubliez: posts the ante 25
Cloney1975: posts the ante 25
tinze: posts the ante 25
4acres: posts the ante 25
MrJovelli: posts the ante 25
regnarkicker: posts the ante 25
tinze: posts small blind 200
4acres: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to tinze [Ks 5h]
MrJovelli: folds
regnarkicker: folds
gjmits10: folds
ainutep: folds
Krrr87: folds
Noubliez: raises 1200 to 1600
Cloney1975: folds
tinze: raises 7890 to 9490 and is all-in
4acres: folds
Noubliez: calls 5751 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [5c As 2s]
*** TURN *** [5c As 2s] [Td]
*** RIVER *** [5c As 2s Td] [5s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
tinze: shows [Ks 5h] (three of a kind, Fives)
Noubliez: shows [Ah Ad] (a full house, Aces full of Fives)
Noubliez collected 15327 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 15327 | Rake 0
Board [5c As 2s Td 5s]
Seat 1: gjmits10 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: ainutep folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Krrr87 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Noubliez showed [Ah Ad] and won (15327) with a full house, Aces full of Fives
Seat 5: Cloney1975 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: tinze (small blind) showed [Ks 5h] and lost with three of a kind, Fives
Seat 7: 4acres (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: MrJovelli folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: regnarkicker folded before Flop (didn't bet)


....or not.

even the most persistent of raisers come up with a hand now and again

stack sizes weren't exactly ideal for a resteal in this spot IMO, but I'm not good at resteals either, so what do I know?

I'd be more inclined to think villain has some sort of hand here, unless he's been stealing from me a lot prior or you know him to be a good player capable of a steal. Most "typical" donks with only 2/3 of the BB's stack would be hesitant to raise here w/o a hand of some sort. I think Bond has a great thread on re-stealing/3betting somewhere.....one of his "things it took a while to learn" threads.

Link anyone?

have to agree with lemming here, i hate re stealing with trash, but certainly suited connectors, qj, any pair, suited 2 gappers are all within my re steal range, late in this particular turn, if you manage to get ahead of the stucture and to the final table with a decent stack, you have a good chance to TID as alot of players at the final table will be folding to cash, which of course can be heavily exploited

actually Tinze, ur stack size is perfect for restealing (CSI/M of 7-12 is ideal). however, try restealing with hands that have semi bluff potential like QJ, T9, J9, etc..... cuz K5o is blah.

Please don't write down the range your going to reshove with because than you will be losing the point of it all. Not that I make that many resteals with air but sometimes I do - they are golden opportunities that just feel right and the cards don't matter anymore. As long as you don't overdo it it's okay. It also doesn't hurt to have a TAG image otherwise you will get called/4bet light.

This is exactly the point. If your fold equity is a large enough %, then ATC will do, which is the essence of the re-steal. I've found that if you're not sure if you're re-reraising for value or re-stealing, then it's probably a bad move (i.e. you get called too often by hands that have your pretty suited connector crushed). I've made this mistake more times than I can count.

Another mistake players make is waiting too long to make a move, so it's easy for ME to assume they're raising wider than they are, just because that's what I'd do. This makes them bad candidates for re-raising, since they're less likely to have a fold-able hand.

Good discussion! Glad to see it didn't die before it got started.

Don't worry, I usually resteal with "right kind of" hands. However, when the situation is good I'll do it with ATC. In this situation my cards didn't matter, since I thought original raiser was weak(ish) and I still had some fold equity. Actually original raisers stack was little bit too small, but it didn't really matter since I didn't expect a call. I just interpreted the 4x raise completely wrong in this spot.

Anyway, I think that K5 is better than for example A5 or 76, since when you get called A-rag hands are so much more often dominated and 76 may need 2 pair or straight for the win.

In the original post, I was more or less joking how resteals can go horribly wrong. Im really not at all scared to resteal.

If he starts reshoving with ATC I think hes going to get into trouble for the first few times he does it because he will get called. Sure, you are making the move assuming a huge percentage of the time the OR is going to fold but you still need to have something pretty decent in case your called, especially if losing the hand cripples you.

ATC assumes 72o - not a hand Im personally going to resteal with.

I don't really agree with your argument. Against A-rag , K5 is nearly as often dominated as 76 and you have to consider , that many players also call with hands like KQ-KT , or maybe K9s or something like this.
But on the other hand , I don't think , that K5 is a worse hand to resteal , because you don't really want to get called with both hands ^^.

tinze here's some math proof why 76s does better against a semi-loose raising+calling range:


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.209% 32.30% 00.91% 1506515628 42450438.00 { K5o }
Hand 1: 66.791% 65.88% 00.91% 3072899592 42450438.00 { 22+, A5s+, KTs+, QJs, A8o+, KTo+, QJo }
compared to:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 37.528% 37.13% 00.39% 615500120 6522622.00 { 76s }
Hand 1: 62.472% 62.08% 00.39% 1028964908 6522622.00 { 22+, A5s+, KTs+, QJs, A8o+, KTo+, QJo }


and here's the same distinction against a very tight total nit who gets shoved on, his calling range will be very tight and now watch this:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 21.927% 21.50% 00.43% 136964124 2707848.00 { K5o }
Hand 1: 78.073% 77.65% 00.43% 494597268 2707848.00 { QQ+, AQs+, AKo }
compared to
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 31.864% 31.66% 00.20% 82413960 519474.00 { 76s }
Hand 1: 68.136% 67.94% 00.20% 176817300 519474.00 { QQ+, AQs+, AKo }


5 come to 10

blah just having some fun with the numbers and the program, maybe it helped you somehow...

cheers
lemm

OP im in kinda same boat as you, the last couple times I have tried a resteal I have run into KK and AK lol. I def need to put more thought into it, although I sucked out huge against KK with J4ss! Im just kinda scared about pulling the trigger most of the time because of the "he's got it this time" factor mostly. I think i just need to grow some balls.