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General HU Questions - Nash help? Ifoldpktones maybe? :) General HU Questions - Nash help? Ifoldpktones maybe? :)

10-16-2010 , 05:17 PM
I have a couple of nash questions.

Nash says to call Q7s at 10.5bb.

1. If villain is NOT playing push/fold at 10.55 and incorporating limps/minraises as well as some shoves, how do we react vs. certain ranges? It feels like shoving our calling range is just letting villains exploit themselves by raise/calling when we have a better hand and raise/folding when we would have otherwise been paying off their shove with a weaker hand.

2. Say we're HU vs a fish. Q7s @10.5bb effective. Assuming the fish is pushing TIGHTER than nash, is having a static nash calling range is overall going to be +ev for us? Some people say "no, Q7s is a bad call if he's pushing only AA and KK" but the whole idea of a nash calling range is that if he IS pushing too tight, sure we'll be losing when we call too wide, but he'll be losing MORE when he's folding blinds to us, right?
General HU Questions - Nash help? Ifoldpktones maybe? :) Quote
10-16-2010 , 05:31 PM
1. I don't think there's a better answer than "it depends on the ranges". I think it's consistent with Nash that if we just always get it in with the Nash range at 10.5BB, no matter what happens (limp, min-raise, shove etc.) we are at least going to be at 0EV.

Of course, if we know our villain min-raises AA only (and calls a shove!) and folds everything else it's pretty silly to jam nash over the raise, but we're going to be at 0EV or better because of all the times he folds. But, if we just folded to his min-raises, it would obviously be more +EV than shoving. So, we can play just Nash and not lose money, but we won't gain as much as we might of.

2. It will be +EV, but not the most +EV.
General HU Questions - Nash help? Ifoldpktones maybe? :) Quote
10-16-2010 , 05:34 PM
1. Im not quite sure what you meant with your last phrase. But if your opponents dont play push/fold nash becomes quite useless. How you react to their minraises depends on their raise/folding and raise/calling ranges. Or you could even do stop n goes if you think its best vs your opponent.

2. I think there were discussions about this topic already. I say no you shouldnt call Q7s if he is shoving tighter then nash. But I know some will say you should.
General HU Questions - Nash help? Ifoldpktones maybe? :) Quote
10-16-2010 , 05:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kvaughan
1. I don't think there's a better answer than "it depends on the ranges". I think it's consistent with Nash that if we just always get it in with the Nash range at 10.5BB, no matter what happens (limp, min-raise, shove etc.) we are at least going to be at 0EV.
Yeah, I'm clearly just looking for an answer of whether or not that 0EV statement (pre-rake ofc) is true. It's obviously not going to be the most +ev almost ever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kvaughan
Of course, if we know our villain min-raises AA only (and calls a shove!) and folds everything else it's pretty silly to jam nash over the raise, but we're going to be at 0EV or better because of all the times he folds. But, if we just folded to his min-raises, it would obviously be more +EV than shoving. So, we can play just Nash and not lose money, but we won't gain as much as we might of.
What do you mean "because of all the times he folds"? If he's shoving nash and minraising AA then there shouldn't be any extra folding. The reason why it should still be 0EV is because if he were open-shoving AA we'd be calling regardless, so shoving over his minraise shouldn't change anything (other than that we're missing out on exploiting the fact that he only minraises his monsters, or AA, or whatever, and we could be actually making money from this).
General HU Questions - Nash help? Ifoldpktones maybe? :) Quote
10-16-2010 , 06:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blinky2099
What do you mean "because of all the times he folds"?
I meant that he folds everything but AA, which he min-raises
General HU Questions - Nash help? Ifoldpktones maybe? :) Quote
10-16-2010 , 07:19 PM
1. kvaughan is right in his first statement if villain never folds, I think. But I think what you actually have is a shove for the remaining BBs plus dead money, and should figure it out that way. Which makes his clarifications more to the point. If he only did it with AA and you were sure of that, you should fold obviously. But if he does it with a reasonably wide range, he is folding his equity in a fairly big pot so you will gain enough to make shoving wide decent.
2. Yes. I know Ronny doesn't get this but you deny him EV by not folding, and if he's denied it, you gain it.
General HU Questions - Nash help? Ifoldpktones maybe? :) Quote
11-03-2010 , 07:34 PM
Found a thread with my name in the title :O

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blinky2099
1. If villain is NOT playing push/fold at 10.55 and incorporating limps/minraises as well as some shoves, how do we react vs. certain ranges? It feels like shoving our calling range is just letting villains exploit themselves by raise/calling when we have a better hand and raise/folding when we would have otherwise been paying off their shove with a weaker hand.
"incorporating limps/minraises as well as some shoves" - that is a pretty accurate description of how I play HU with 10-15 bbs against most players.

It is completely possible that sticking to a nash strategy can be exploited by a strategy which includes limps and min-raises if the stacks are deep enough. Where nash starts to become exploitable exactly, I'm not so sure. But you definitely should not be saying to yourself, "oh, it doesn't matter that villain is limping, etc, I can just stick to nash and there is nothing they can do to exploit me", even at 10.55 BBs.

The 15 BB nash equilibrium presented in "Kill Everyone" is pretty interesting to look at, it lets SB limp in or open with a 3x raise as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blinky2099
2. Say we're HU vs a fish. Q7s @10.5bb effective. Assuming the fish is pushing TIGHTER than nash, is having a static nash calling range is overall going to be +ev for us? Some people say "no, Q7s is a bad call if he's pushing only AA and KK" but the whole idea of a nash calling range is that if he IS pushing too tight, sure we'll be losing when we call too wide, but he'll be losing MORE when he's folding blinds to us, right?
This is a good answer:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kvaughan
2. It will be +EV, but not the most +EV.
The confusion here comes from people talking about two different types of EV. There is the EV for the hand and the EV for the strategy. As a strategy nash will always have a positive (or at least not a negative) EV against someone playing push-fold.
General HU Questions - Nash help? Ifoldpktones maybe? :) Quote

      
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