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game of turn game of turn

10-07-2013 , 02:32 PM
hi,

Your game on turn?
It is the first game with a villain. I have no statistics or read.

thanks
r



    Poker Stars, $3 Buy-in (60/120 blinds, 15 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 9 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #19837681

    Hero (MP3): 4,190 (34.9 bb)
    CO: 5,395 (45 bb)
    BTN: 8,865 (73.9 bb)
    SB: 6,860 (57.2 bb)
    BB: 8,825 (73.5 bb)
    UTG+1: 15,823 (131.9 bb)
    UTG+2: 11,081 (92.3 bb)
    MP1: 3,045 (25.4 bb)
    MP2: 6,443 (53.7 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T K
    4 folds, Hero raises to 270, 3 folds, BB calls 150

    Flop: (735) 4 5 T (2 players)
    BB bets 720, Hero calls 720

    Turn: (2,175) 4 (2 players)
    BB bets 7,820 and is all-in

    Spoiler:
    Results: 2,175 pot
    Final Board: 4 5 T 4
    BB mucked and lost (-1,005 net)



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    game of turn Quote
    10-07-2013 , 03:42 PM
    fold pre and fold turn.
    game of turn Quote
    10-07-2013 , 04:12 PM
    I would fold flop without notion that he might bet a fd; as played and with that turn card no brainer fold..
    game of turn Quote
    10-07-2013 , 04:17 PM
    1 - Raising pre is fine (make it min-raise though).
    2 - I agree that folding Flop is definitely an option (I'd prolly have thought and called in game though).
    3 - Fold Turn.
    game of turn Quote
    10-07-2013 , 05:15 PM
    Don't mind pre from the hj... Kind of want to snap fold the flop when he pots it ( repping sets / 2prs). On the turn if he was semi bluffing he got there and the board paired too. He could also take this line with JJ but jamming turn would be funky with any of the above.

    Still I'd probably fold the flop
    game of turn Quote
    10-08-2013 , 10:46 AM
    if we can't play and win this hand IP postflop when we flop TPGK and 2nBDFD, should we be playing this hand at all?

    nope
    game of turn Quote
    10-08-2013 , 11:16 AM
    I'm going to disagree with a lot of what I see in this thread.

    Preflop: Fine. I don't hate folding since it's early, but KTo can be in your open range from MP3, unless you've been active this point, definitely a raise if you're perceived to be tight.

    The raise amount is fine. The suggestion of 2x as opposed to 2.25x is silly. OK if that's your preference, but this early in a $3 tournament, there's precisely zero strategic difference between the two amounts.

    Flop: I agree with the response that said if you even consider folding to the donk bet on this flop, you should fold preflop. Fold here and you better hope you get moved because anybody paying attention will take shots at you when your raise pre and low cards flop.

    Raise the flop. Now your stack size determines how much. There's 1450 in the pot and you have about 3900 left. If you min raise and he jams you're in a tough spot because you'll only need 29% equity to call. Therefore, I'd ship it and if he has a set, that's life. register for another tournament.

    Turn: As played, you have to fold
    game of turn Quote
    10-08-2013 , 12:22 PM
    Pre good.
    r/c flop > call > fold imo
    As played call
    game of turn Quote
    10-08-2013 , 01:12 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Synth
    1 - Raising pre is fine (make it min-raise though).
    2 - I agree that folding Flop is definitely an option (I'd prolly have thought and called in game though).
    3 - Fold Turn.
    don't think minraising is very good with deeper stacks...
    game of turn Quote
    10-08-2013 , 01:33 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Sweaty Phil
    don't think minraising is very good with deeper stacks...
    Then you thought wrong.
    game of turn Quote
    10-08-2013 , 01:36 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Synth
    Then you thought wrong.
    thank you for your insightful comment
    game of turn Quote
    10-08-2013 , 01:56 PM
    I think the slight increase in fold equity and the fact that BB isn't priced in with so many hands (so making a bigger mistake if he still calls pre and fold flops too often given we got a wider range) works out better with a 2.5 raise than a minraise. Maybe it sounds a bit like nitpicking, but I really don't think it is.
    game of turn Quote
    10-08-2013 , 02:03 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Sweaty Phil
    I think the slight increase in fold equity and the fact that BB isn't priced in with so many hands (so making a bigger mistake if he still calls pre and fold flops too often given we got a wider range) works out better with a 2.5 raise than a minraise. Maybe it sounds a bit like nitpicking, but I really don't think it is.
    So min-raising is not very good in your opinion but raising .5x more is just right? Lol.

    No villain will fold anymore often to a 2.5x BB raise than to a 2x BB raise.
    game of turn Quote
    10-08-2013 , 02:09 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Synth
    Then you thought wrong.
    2x is essentially no different than 2.25x in this case, which was OP's raise. But that's not my main point.

    Problem is - hero isn't deep enough. When he's called, he has created an SPR of a bit more than 5, so he doesn't really have 3 streets of strategic play left.

    In most situations, villain would check, and if hero cbets 2/3 pot and is called he has less than 2x pot left. Not much room to maneuver. When he gets donked for full pot, he either has to fold what may be the best hand or commit his stack.

    In this case, with his starting stack size, he actually makes his decisions easier if he raises bigger pre flop. If he raises 3.5x or 4x, he can easily fold to a 3-bet plus, if called and donked like in this hand, with an SPR of <2.5 he's committed with TP2K. Easier decision.
    game of turn Quote
    10-08-2013 , 02:26 PM
    oooh, I thought the highlighted one was hero. sorry!
    game of turn Quote
    10-08-2013 , 02:28 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kurn, son of Mogh
    2x is essentially no different than 2.25x in this case, which was OP's raise. But that's not my main point.
    I'm not saying "there's any strategic difference" between raising 2x and 2.5x (I said 2x in my OP because it's my preference and I tend to advocate it). But that is my point. There is no difference between the the two sizes.

    I disagree that raising more makes the hand easier to play.
    game of turn Quote
    10-08-2013 , 02:51 PM
    Nothing wrong with pre or flop play, folding the flop with top pair good kicker with that board texture is ridiculous and half the people will just be saying that because they are being results orientated. As played river is an easy fold.
    game of turn Quote
    10-08-2013 , 02:54 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Synth
    I'm not saying "there's any strategic difference" between raising 2x and 2.5x (I said 2x in my OP because it's my preference and I tend to advocate it). But that is my point. There is no difference between the the two sizes.

    I disagree that raising more makes the hand easier to play.
    OK. Understood. But be aware that you initially said that OP should min raise rather than raise to 2.25x

    As to making post flop easier, I can see both sides of the argument. I would also make the point that at this level, where too many opponents tend to call pre flop raises to lightly, if you have the advantage after the flop, wouldn't you be better off raising more?
    game of turn Quote
    10-08-2013 , 04:58 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kurn, son of Mogh
    OK. Understood. But be aware that you initially said that OP should min raise rather than raise to 2.25x

    As to making post flop easier, I can see both sides of the argument. I would also make the point that at this level, where too many opponents tend to call pre flop raises to lightly, if you have the advantage after the flop, wouldn't you be better off raising more?
    yes
    game of turn Quote
    10-08-2013 , 05:09 PM
    wow i cant believe ppl are saying fold pre and fold flop! If we dont open KT in late position what hands are we opening? we are not guna ever accumulate enough chips playing this tight.

    Fold flop to donk bet? its the early stages of a $3 mtt, we have to at least make some provisions for droolers at this stage, its likely players with strong hands will look for the check raise, he leads a bunch of draws and worse tens, middle and bottom pair thinking its for value! With this kind of shallow SPR I would raise/gii otf and be super happy about it.
    game of turn Quote
    10-08-2013 , 05:33 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Synth
    So min-raising is not very good in your opinion but raising .5x more is just right? Lol.

    No villain will fold anymore often to a 2.5x BB raise than to a 2x BB raise.
    Do you min-raise in the first level of a tournament? I imagine you don't because I don't know many regs that do. Why is that? Do you think all the people that played the $10,300 high roller on stars during WCOOP were a bunch of fish because the majority of them were NOT min-raising even in the later parts of the tournament and the FT?

    I think (and let me re-iterate that I THINK, just like many of you THINK the opposite, you offer no proof to the contrary and until you do it's a subjective opinion in this regard not some sort of proven theory. Can you emphatically tell me that a different raise sizing based on chip stack dynamics does not make a difference? Can you tell me that table dynamics do not change at all based on table stack sizes?) it's a leak to not vary your raise size from table to table based on the chip dynamic of the table. Let me clearly specify that I DO NOT mean varying your raise sizes because of hands or whatever, I still feel it needs to be a constant raise sizing.

    I don't know what kind of MTTs you guys are playing, but last time I checked the MTTs I'm playing, people react differently to ALL of our actions, including sizing. You can't just auto-pilot everything you do and expect to win.


    Also in regards to actual hand, yea never folding KT there on the HJ with stack sizes. Would probably advocate a slightly higher raise like 2.5x given the stacks, but of course this is dependent on the actual actions of the table. TBH I kind of just want to fold the flop to that strong of a donk lead readless. Turn is without question a fold, I can't imagine there's anything you beat here.
    game of turn Quote
    10-08-2013 , 05:58 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kurn, son of Mogh
    OK. Understood. But be aware that you initially said that OP should min raise rather than raise to 2.25x
    I'm fully aware of what it is I said and I stand by it.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by thadarkman78
    Do you min-raise in the first level of a tournament? I imagine you don't because I don't know many regs that do. Why is that?
    No, I do not.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by thadarkman78
    I think (and let me re-iterate that I THINK, just like many of you THINK the opposite, you offer no proof to the contrary and until you do it's a subjective opinion in this regard not some sort of proven theory. Can you emphatically tell me that a different raise sizing based on chip stack dynamics does not make a difference? Can you tell me that table dynamics do not change at all based on table stack sizes?) it's a leak to not vary your raise size from table to table based on the chip dynamic of the table.
    WTF are you talking about? Can you emphatically tell me where I have said the things you assume I am saying? I can assure you, you can not. But to clarify for you: I do think alternating bet sizing is important. I do think that table dynamics should change the way one plays. I do think that chip stack sizes make a difference in the way one approaches a hand.

    Do I think that you need to raise anymore than minimum in this spot very spot? No. Do I think it's bad to raise 2.5x? No.

    My original argument was with the guy who thought a 2.5xBB raise is more effective than a 2xBB raise!

    You've totally read more into what it is I had said than what it is I actually said.

    Last edited by Synth; 10-08-2013 at 06:06 PM.
    game of turn Quote
    10-08-2013 , 10:13 PM
    Ok since everything I try to make out of your posts is entirely contradictory (in my eyes) and rather than me put out a bunch of quotes to explain what may be a completely different interpretation of what you're trying to say, explain it to me. Why is it you think a 2.5xBB raise is no more effective than a 2xBB raise? It can't be because "no one is folding to a 2.5x BB raise and calling a 2xBB raise", otherwise the entire concept of bet sizing would be irrelevant.
    game of turn Quote
    10-09-2013 , 12:58 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by V-Delaney
    Pre good.
    r/c flop > call > fold imo
    As played call
    F*** yeah!

    Lol at caring about the difference between a 2x and a 2.25x open at this stage of the tourney. People need to realise that at these stakes there are far more important concepts/strategies/spots to focus your attention to.
    game of turn Quote
    10-09-2013 , 02:09 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by thadarkman78
    Ok since everything I try to make out of your posts is entirely contradictory (in my eyes) and rather than me put out a bunch of quotes to explain what may be a completely different interpretation of what you're trying to say, explain it to me.
    You have provided nothing to suggest that what I said is contradictory.

    Sweaty Phil basically stated that raising minimum is bad but raising .5x more is good. That .5x more is not so significant that one can argue that a minimum raise is bad but a 2.5x raise is not. That's where my issue lies.

    Want further proof?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Synth
    I'm not saying "there's any strategic difference" between raising 2x and 2.5x (I said 2x in my OP because it's my preference and I tend to advocate it). But that is my point. There is no difference between the the two sizes.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Synth
    Do I think that you need to raise anymore than minimum in this spot very spot? No. Do I think it's bad to raise 2.5x? No.

    My original argument was with the guy who thought a 2.5xBB raise is more effective than a 2xBB raise!
    You assume because I'm debating that a .5 of a bet to be no more effective than a minimum bet that somehow I don't believe in raising more at time and less on others or that I think larger bets (more than .5 of a bet) aren't more effective at times than smaller bets. That's completely inaccurate assumption.

    Last edited by Synth; 10-09-2013 at 02:39 AM.
    game of turn Quote

          
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