I've played about 40 turbo matrix tournaments so far, admittedly not a huge amount of data... My ROI is up 10% from regular turbo stt sngs.

They are fun. But it might be that my hourly would be down, because effectively I'm playing less $ than before. But in my case my ROI was only around 8%-10% before. So I basically doubled my ROI. I wasn't playing a huge number of STTs before though.

The increase in ROI feels like it has to do with lower variance/rake but I don't know how to make an argument for it. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but the numbers are what they are.

I did make adjustments to my normal play. But they were very obvious ones that had to do with survival vs KO.

I don't use any HUD or other software, so the extra info that I get from playing against the same opponents is huge compared to if I were multitabling vs tables of unique opponents. But that's just my circumstance, maybe.

Actually it will be hard for me to go back to normal Sngs. I don't see the point as long as I can get a matrix game. Fun, +ROI/Lower variance, Lower Rake. Why would I play other stuff?

You were running hot before (8-10 roi), you are running hotter now (16-20 roi)

'The numbers are what they are' = a random tiny insignificant sample

You're playing recreationally, do what makes you happy. If you tried to tell me what to watch on tv in 5 minutes I wouldnt give it a second thought, so I dont expect you or anyone else to give a second thought to how I dont like these.

The response to them is expected, and its making me sad (also expected)

I'm not sure why you guys think the rake is lower at Matrix SNGs than normal SNGs. If someone can show me how the rake is lower, I'd love to hear it. According to my math (I didn't go to Harvard but I did get a 600 on my SATs), it's exactly proportionate with normal SNGs if you do a percent to buy in ratio. I think the good thing about the Matrix-style SNGs though are that they are a lot more fun than the normal ones and I also feel like the play is a little fishier due to people getting boners over the "KO points". It definately pisses me off though when I place 1st in 2 and 2nd in one and still don't become the "Matrix champion" because some douche came in 3rd 3 times yet knocked more people out than I did.

Warning, long and boring reading below.

Just played my first, a $10+1 to get used to this.

Here's how it went down:

1st place (53 points). Match 1: 1st, Match 2: 4th, Match 3: 2nd, Match 4: 2nd. Clearly he was the "best" player here at this matrix. However, he made some very loose calls, in hopes of doubling up early in the game, and with a decent sized (but not huge) stack, he also made some awful calls near the bubble to try to get knockout points. He's calling with top pair, crap kicker on all 3 streets, losing 80% of his stack vs. the 2nd big stack.

He knocked out 12 players in the 4 tournaments as far as I could figure. In fact, because he knocked out these players so early (and outlasted a bunch more), 1st place was decided before we reached the bubble in 3 of the SnGs.

2nd Place (me with 28 points). Match 1: 6th, Match 2: 1st, Match 3: 7th, Match 4: 4th. I only knocked out 4 players myself. I don't think I played particularly well, but managed to knock out the 4 players in the only match I moneyed in (and won). I'm pretty sure I played non-optimally here and got lucky to finish 2nd overall.

3rd place (26 points). Match 1: 4th, Match 2: 3rd, Match 3: 6th, Match 4: 3rd.

Here's where it gets interesting. When I got knocked out on the bubble in match 4, this player was 2nd in chips and 2 points behind me in the matrix. Just thinking aloud here, if he gets a knockout then he's in 2nd place in the matrix, an increase of $3.60 ($1.80 for moving up to 2nd place in the tourney at least, and $1.80 for moving into 2nd place in the matrix) with a possibility of getting more if he wins 1st place in the tourney. If he just sits and watches, it's $1.80 more in real money, plus 1 more point in survival. Then I guess he would need to take first place (and knock out the last player) to win. So, to leapfrog me in the standings, he MUST knock out someone. He wound up calling off chips in bad spots, got low in chips and wasn't ever able to have anyone covered again, and wound up losing in 3rd place in the tournament, and 3rd place in the matrix.

4th Place: Bubble boy with 24 points: Match 1: 5th, Match 2: 2nd, Match 3: 5th, Match 4: 6th. I don't remember much about him actually. He seemed pretty tight from what little I remember. He earned 3 knockouts. One more would have gotten him into the Matrix Money.

And here, the matrix tournament lobby window closed on me, so the rest is from memory.

5th Place: This is the guy I remembered most. The guy played a typical TAG SnG game, but would berate people for continuously sucking out on him. He always got his money in good, but was rarely in a position to knock people out. His chips dwindled a bit, and when he lost the bad end of a 60/40 or a coin flip, there was nothing he could do afterwards. He managed to finish 1st in Match 4, but by then, he was completely out of the running because of some bad finishes and bad luck. Though he was complaining about other players sucking out on him, I'm not sure the other players played badly considering pot odds and the bonus of knocking someone out in this format.

8th place: Actually won 1 tournament, but was really reckless early with small pocket pairs. He seemed to be playing a double up or go home strategy, which would probably be really good in the Matrix if he actually hit. If he hit his hands, I couldn't see him being stopped because he would be able to knock people out at will.

9th place: Got knocked out real early. He was a typical loose passive fish. Seriously bad.

Anyways, I'm not sure what this data tells anyone, but this is just what I saw in my games.

Basically because you move up to x4 of what u usually play, and get a rake break (of a few cents). Of course this only counts if you can afford 110+9 or higher.

This is really one of the only tangible PROS for these. The are only 2 scenarios where you are happy you played a matrix instead of 4 SNGs

1) 2 3rd places, 3rd in pool,-----profitable session
2) 4 1st places----------LOL

These are of course far outweighed by the times where you have 1 1st or some other combo which wouldve been a profit in a standard 4 tabling session.

These might grow on me yet.

I tried a $22+2 turbo. Table-wise I finished 2/2/4/5 and 2nd in points. The last match going was me vs the points leader... whoever won the heads-up would also win the points pool. I got finished on a 3-outer, but I still made $11.45 net. Winning that last match would have gotten me about another $16.

unless I'm missing something, this isn't exactly accurate. You're comparing apples to oranges.

There's a fifth payout in the matrix. This makes a huge difference in your ROI. For example I've run bad and bubbled in all 4 tournaments and still placed in the overall prize pool. If I run exactly the same and bubbled in 4 standard STT, I lose everything, 100%. In the Matrix format I lose anywhere from 16%-100% depending on how the other players do. That's absolutely HUGE!!!! For me right now it's partly contributing to +10% average ROI compared to my standard STT ROI. (But once again I'm only 50+ matrix games in, a small sample)

these things are different enough to warrant their own analysis. but IMHO, they don't just suck outright. There are huge metagame differences. I'm not trying to convince anyone that they are more profitable than standard STT - I have no idea. Especially because the hourly rate is (probably) going to be different if you play at the same buyin level as your usual STT.

It seems to me that some players have a very standard/rigid idea of approaching STT, that factors in: payout structure, bankroll requirements, # of players, ect. and in the end, that yields a specific ROI according to your ITM.

Yes if you apply that exact idea to a matrix tournament it isn't going to work out the same. But so what? What's a good matrix ITM? What's a reasonable bankroll to buyin ratio? No one can say (for certain) at the moment.

Aside from purely thinking of them in terms of ROI/hourly, how can anyone pass up the chance to play against players on 4 different tables - in different table positions - as opposed to 1?!! Maybe most of everyone uses tracking software and it doesn't matter to them. But I don't and therefore the matrix format makes a huge difference.

If at any time you place in the overall matrix scoreboard top 3, you should be happy your played because you would be making a higher ROI than if you hadn't played a matrix. The only times it sucks is when you only cash in one of the SNGs and don't make it onto the leaderboard top 3. If you're a fairly good SNG player, you should be making it onto the top 3 more times than not, making these profitable.

Prop bet?

So they haven't gotten rid of these games yet?

depending on the terms, I will gladly take that action.
Over how many games? At what level?

You let me know the exact terms you'll want to bet on (wording / level / samplesize / screenames of player(s)), and the amount of $ you're comfortable with, you'll need to escrow with me or another respected/trusted poster

o snap! I want in.

Fair enough. Just give me a bit to come up with terms.

I think this is a brilliant solution for 90-180 ppl MTTs. For STT, I think not so much, but this might just be what MTTs need.

i want in on any/all prop action involving matrix stt kthx

ditto

... dont go killing my action or anything guys

wait what's the bet? That a good sng player will top 3 these more than 50% of the time or that they are more profitable than regular sngs.

I would like to get in on this also. KO=2 points is not good for good players. FTP overemphasis on bounties and KOs on their site is getting a little annoying. I mean its a nice idea in some things as a bonus but this actually takes away from the SNG IMO.

yea fult tilt is just playing to their audience, the degen gamblers off whom we profit. Aren't KO's exciting?

I'm working on the terms. But basically that these tournaments are Profitable over X sample size. I'm guessing a strong player can show around 8-15% ROI, at lower levels. But I'll come up with the explicit terms soon.

I'm not rich so I can't take all the action. (plus I'm trying to make a point more than anything else, and I'm also curious about the outcome.) But maybe I can get someone to cover more action on the pro matrix side with me.

So no one here thinks they are profitable? interesting. In that case I should get good odds, eh?

I may be off, but from your discussion the part Scotty quoted was you saying a good player could get in the top three for the overall payout MOST of the time...

I don't think the question is whether they are profitable.

Correct, you said 'top 3 more times than not' and thats what I was looking to book action on

I was actually talking about betting against you on this.
I like ilenzio's side.