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FT  MTT JJ early line check FT  MTT JJ early line check

09-21-2009 , 08:36 AM
Full Tilt Poker $8 + 0.80 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t15/t30 Blinds - 9 players -

CO: t1555 M = 34.56
BTN: t1310 M = 29.11
SB: t3970 M = 88.22
BB: t1970 M = 43.78
UTG: t2105 M = 46.78
UTG+1: t2455 M = 54.56
UTG+2: t1920 M = 42.67
Hero (MP1): t1955 M = 43.44
MP2: t570 M = 12.67

NO reads yet - still early.

Pre Flop: (t45) Hero is MP1 with J J
UTG calls t30, 2 folds, Hero raises to t120, 5 folds, UTG raises to t380, Hero calls t260

Flop: (t805) 5 9 9 (2 players)
UTG bets t260, Hero raises to t1575 all in, UTG calls t1315

STD or donktastic?
FT  MTT JJ early line check Quote
09-21-2009 , 12:26 PM
Anyone?
FT  MTT JJ early line check Quote
09-21-2009 , 12:31 PM
somehow I have the feeling that villain has QQ-AA a lot here, just not sure at what point you could or should get rid of it
FT  MTT JJ early line check Quote
09-21-2009 , 12:32 PM
I don't see what villain is raising with besides AA-QQ. I see it all the time on FT. Just fold and wait for a better spot. This may seem super nit-ish, but I don't care, every time I have re-shoved in that position I have ran into AA-QQ. If they have AK, AQ, or JJ-22, they usually just re-raise all in, and in that case I would consider calling with JJ. I realize its early so you probably don't have reads yet. With a read, things could be considered differently.
FT  MTT JJ early line check Quote
09-21-2009 , 12:45 PM
Early blinds, I would play JJ for set value when someone has already opened. A raise is not a bad line, but I don't see a reason to start building a pot in semi-position. If you do get callers - which you will - if any over cards come you are pretty much dead.

I also think he has a monster - AA-QQ; AK - considering his raise wasn't that big. It seems he wants a caller.

Although this is a good flop for you considering the action (If he has AK), I think it's an easy fold. Leave and get a better spot.
FT  MTT JJ early line check Quote
09-21-2009 , 02:16 PM
I probably check pf and bet into almost any flop to see where I stand. As played, you raised pf to see where you stand and it doesn't look good for you with that limp-reraise. I fold right there.

You checkraised all-in on that flop. You are only beating TT, 88, AK, AQ. Although you really have to think if any of those are candidates for limp/reraise UTG. I don't think so.
FT  MTT JJ early line check Quote
09-21-2009 , 02:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PantsOnFire
I probably check pf and bet into almost any flop to see where I stand. As played, you raised pf to see where you stand and it doesn't look good for you with that limp-reraise. I fold right there.

You checkraised all-in on that flop. You are only beating TT, 88, AK, AQ. Although you really have to think if any of those are candidates for limp/reraise UTG. I don't think so.
How do you check preflop? You mean limp? If so that's terrible. You're losing so much value.

Raise to 120 is fine but I think you have to decide if you have the best hand here. Calling for set value here is bad since we're not getting the right odds and putting in a big portion of our stack. Seems like a really strong line I probably fold but don't like it one bit.
FT  MTT JJ early line check Quote
09-21-2009 , 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markulous
How do you check preflop? You mean limp? If so that's terrible. You're losing so much value.

Raise to 120 is fine but I think you have to decide if you have the best hand here. Calling for set value here is bad since we're not getting the right odds and putting in a big portion of our stack. Seems like a really strong line I probably fold but don't like it one bit.
UTG only called. So, how is he putting a big portion of his stack in for set value? t30?

ohh, when I mentioned call for set value, I meant the initial call. Not the raise.

Maybe I am still wrong?
FT  MTT JJ early line check Quote
09-21-2009 , 02:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vega
UTG only called. So, how is he putting a big portion of his stack in for set value? t30?

ohh, when I mentioned call for set value, I meant the initial call. Not the raise.

Maybe I am still wrong?
I meant calling the villains 3-bet for set value is bad. Limping pre is even worse. Playing JJ for set value after one limper in SSMTT is terrible.
FT  MTT JJ early line check Quote
09-21-2009 , 02:57 PM
Hmmm.

Could you care to explain the reasoning behind that? (Not being a pain, I just would really like to know. )

I understand it's a SS, but I figured playing for set value would still be best.
FT  MTT JJ early line check Quote
09-21-2009 , 02:59 PM
I don't think limping JJ is always a bad play, as it can be kinda tarpish, but ya, I would agree that the vast majority of the time, one should be raising it. The point in playing a hand for set value is usually that you're behind & need to catch a set to be ahead...chances are if you have JJ you're ahead already, so setmining is a lil azz backwards.

As for this actual hand, ya, you beat virtually nothing, just let it go.
FT  MTT JJ early line check Quote
09-21-2009 , 03:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMurder3
I don't think limping JJ is always a bad play, as it can be kinda tarpish, but ya, I would agree that the vast majority of the time, one should be raising it. The point in playing a hand for set value is usually that you're behind & need to catch a set to be ahead...chances are if you have JJ you're ahead already, so setmining is a lil azz backwards.

As for this actual hand, ya, you beat virtually nothing, just let it go.

This I understand and agree with.

At the same time, my thought was it would be better to setmine in the early stages of the tournament and limp with hands like JJ-99? Yeah, I may be ahead and win a small pot, but I would rather trap for a whole stack?

Hmm, I guess my devils advocate side is saying SS players over play their hands anyways and I would get paid regardless. I don't know.
FT  MTT JJ early line check Quote
09-21-2009 , 03:18 PM
The only had we beat here sometimes is AKs imo.
His flopbet really looks like it wants a shove too.
FT  MTT JJ early line check Quote
09-21-2009 , 03:31 PM
really looks like aa. people LOVE limping aa these days. that being said I'm not sure where I'd get away from the hand and I'd probably play it the same in the moment. looking at it now tho, maybe u can fold pf after his limp/raise.
FT  MTT JJ early line check Quote
09-21-2009 , 03:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by you won, don't sho
really looks like aa. people LOVE limping aa these days. that being said I'm not sure where I'd get away from the hand and I'd probably play it the same in the moment. looking at it now tho, maybe u can fold pf after his limp/raise.
Agree - I think if we're going to fold it has to be pre-flop. I can't see why we'd call without the odds to set mine and then fold on such a dry board. His silly flop bet could easily be AK I guess, otherwise he's tarped us g00t.
FT  MTT JJ early line check Quote
09-21-2009 , 04:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vega
Hmmm.

Could you care to explain the reasoning behind that? (Not being a pain, I just would really like to know. )

I understand it's a SS, but I figured playing for set value would still be best.
Because there's so many stations out there that will call raises with a ton of hands you beat so you're losing a ton of value by not raising. Not only that but good luck trying to play post flop as everyone and their mother limps after you. Hard to outplay the majority of these entrants post flop when they don't even know what they have.

In HS against good players you can limp here sometimes to mix up your play and hide the value of your hand. But that's not the case in the OP.
FT  MTT JJ early line check Quote
09-21-2009 , 04:09 PM
Good points. Thx
FT  MTT JJ early line check Quote
09-21-2009 , 07:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markulous
How do you check preflop?
Sorry, for some reason I thought JJ was the BB, had a brain fart. So yes, don't limp, raise. Now my line is fold pf. Calling and then facing a cbet is a bad spot to be in. Actually, that's one good reason for folding pf.
FT  MTT JJ early line check Quote
09-21-2009 , 07:37 PM
Fold pre to the 3bet. Big leak I've found in my game is going too far with JJ after calling a 3bet preflop. There are always some clowns who are 3betting Q9s here but the majority of time the guy has QQ+. We can setmine when very deep but not here. Raising the limper is the correct play, tho, just make a note on that guy.
FT  MTT JJ early line check Quote
09-22-2009 , 11:28 AM
Very sound advice - ty - I should have folded pre to the 3 bet. Dude had AA as most you have said.
FT  MTT JJ early line check Quote

      
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