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FT $8 MTT JJ early line check

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09-21-2009 , 08:36 AM

BDPOD

centurion

Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 108

Full Tilt Poker $8 + 0.80 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t15/t30 Blinds - 9 players -

CO: t1555 M = 34.56
BTN: t1310 M = 29.11
SB: t3970 M = 88.22
BB: t1970 M = 43.78
UTG: t2105 M = 46.78
UTG+1: t2455 M = 54.56
UTG+2: t1920 M = 42.67
Hero (MP1): t1955 M = 43.44
MP2: t570 M = 12.67

NO reads yet - still early.

Pre Flop: (t45) Hero is MP1 with J

UTG calls t30, 2 folds, Hero raises to t120, 5 folds, UTG raises to t380, Hero calls t260

Flop: (t805) 5

(2 players)
UTG bets t260, Hero raises to t1575 all in, UTG calls t1315

STD or donktastic?

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09-21-2009 , 12:26 PM

BDPOD

centurion

Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 108

Anyone?

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09-21-2009 , 12:31 PM

quarague

grinder

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 526

somehow I have the feeling that villain has QQ-AA a lot here, just not sure at what point you could or should get rid of it

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09-21-2009 , 12:32 PM

inanimatecarbonrod

centurion

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 115

I don't see what villain is raising with besides AA-QQ. I see it all the time on FT. Just fold and wait for a better spot. This may seem super nit-ish, but I don't care, every time I have re-shoved in that position I have ran into AA-QQ. If they have AK, AQ, or JJ-22, they usually just re-raise all in, and in that case I would consider calling with JJ. I realize its early so you probably don't have reads yet. With a read, things could be considered differently.

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09-21-2009 , 12:45 PM

Vega

enthusiast

Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 67

Early blinds, I would play JJ for set value when someone has already opened. A raise is not a bad line, but I don't see a reason to start building a pot in semi-position. If you do get callers - which you will - if any over cards come you are pretty much dead.

I also think he has a monster - AA-QQ; AK - considering his raise wasn't that big. It seems he wants a caller.

Although this is a good flop for you considering the action (If he has AK), I think it's an easy fold. Leave and get a better spot.

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09-21-2009 , 02:16 PM

PantsOnFire

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 5,720

I probably check pf and bet into almost any flop to see where I stand. As played, you raised pf to see where you stand and it doesn't look good for you with that limp-reraise. I fold right there.

You checkraised all-in on that flop. You are only beating TT, 88, AK, AQ. Although you really have to think if any of those are candidates for limp/reraise UTG. I don't think so.

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09-21-2009 , 02:41 PM

Markulous

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 4,530

Quote:

Originally Posted by PantsOnFire

I probably check pf and bet into almost any flop to see where I stand. As played, you raised pf to see where you stand and it doesn't look good for you with that limp-reraise. I fold right there.

You checkraised all-in on that flop. You are only beating TT, 88, AK, AQ. Although you really have to think if any of those are candidates for limp/reraise UTG. I don't think so.

How do you check preflop? You mean limp? If so that's terrible. You're losing so much value.

Raise to 120 is fine but I think you have to decide if you have the best hand here. Calling for set value here is bad since we're not getting the right odds and putting in a big portion of our stack. Seems like a really strong line I probably fold but don't like it one bit.

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09-21-2009 , 02:49 PM

Vega

enthusiast

Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 67

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markulous

UTG only called. So, how is he putting a big portion of his stack in for set value? t30?

ohh, when I mentioned call for set value, I meant the initial call. Not the raise.

Maybe I am still wrong?

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09-21-2009 , 02:52 PM

Markulous

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 4,530

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vega

UTG only called. So, how is he putting a big portion of his stack in for set value? t30?

ohh, when I mentioned call for set value, I meant the initial call. Not the raise.

Maybe I am still wrong?

I meant calling the villains 3-bet for set value is bad. Limping pre is even worse. Playing JJ for set value after one limper in SSMTT is terrible.

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09-21-2009 , 02:57 PM

#10

Vega

enthusiast

Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 67

Hmmm.

Could you care to explain the reasoning behind that? (Not being a pain, I just would really like to know.

)

I understand it's a SS, but I figured playing for set value would still be best.

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09-21-2009 , 02:59 PM

#11

JMurder3

not god, probably jebus

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 53,649

I don't think limping JJ is always a bad play, as it can be kinda tarpish, but ya, I would agree that the vast majority of the time, one should be raising it. The point in playing a hand for set value is usually that you're behind & need to catch a set to be ahead...chances are if you have JJ you're ahead already, so setmining is a lil azz backwards.

As for this actual hand, ya, you beat virtually nothing, just let it go.

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09-21-2009 , 03:04 PM

#12

Vega

enthusiast

Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 67

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMurder3

This I understand and agree with.

At the same time, my thought was it would be better to setmine in the early stages of the tournament and limp with hands like JJ-99? Yeah, I may be ahead and win a small pot, but I would rather trap for a whole stack?

Hmm, I guess my devils advocate side is saying SS players over play their hands anyways and I would get paid regardless. I don't know.

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09-21-2009 , 03:18 PM

#13

Recteur

banned

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 2,244

The only had we beat here sometimes is AKs imo.
His flopbet really looks like it wants a shove too.

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09-21-2009 , 03:31 PM

#14

you won, don't sho

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,998

really looks like aa. people LOVE limping aa these days. that being said I'm not sure where I'd get away from the hand and I'd probably play it the same in the moment. looking at it now tho, maybe u can fold pf after his limp/raise.

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09-21-2009 , 03:35 PM

#15

Hoopie1

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 26,436

Quote:

Originally Posted by you won, don't sho

Agree - I think if we're going to fold it has to be pre-flop. I can't see why we'd call without the odds to set mine and then fold on such a dry board. His silly flop bet could easily be AK I guess, otherwise he's tarped us g00t.

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09-21-2009 , 04:06 PM

#16

Markulous

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 4,530

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vega

Hmmm.

Could you care to explain the reasoning behind that? (Not being a pain, I just would really like to know.

)

I understand it's a SS, but I figured playing for set value would still be best.

Because there's so many stations out there that will call raises with a ton of hands you beat so you're losing a ton of value by not raising. Not only that but good luck trying to play post flop as everyone and their mother limps after you. Hard to outplay the majority of these entrants post flop when they don't even know what they have.

In HS against good players you can limp here sometimes to mix up your play and hide the value of your hand. But that's not the case in the OP.

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09-21-2009 , 04:09 PM

#17

Vega

enthusiast

Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 67

Good points. Thx

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09-21-2009 , 07:08 PM

#18

PantsOnFire

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 5,720

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markulous

How do you check preflop?

Sorry, for some reason I thought JJ was the BB, had a brain fart. So yes, don't limp, raise. Now my line is fold pf. Calling and then facing a cbet is a bad spot to be in. Actually, that's one good reason for folding pf.

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09-21-2009 , 07:37 PM

#19

Jiggymike

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 13,420

Fold pre to the 3bet. Big leak I've found in my game is going too far with JJ after calling a 3bet preflop. There are always some clowns who are 3betting Q9s here but the majority of time the guy has QQ+. We can setmine when very deep but not here. Raising the limper is the correct play, tho, just make a note on that guy.

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09-22-2009 , 11:28 AM

#20

BDPOD

centurion

Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 108

Very sound advice - ty - I should have folded pre to the 3 bet. Dude had AA as most you have said.

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