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fifty50, qq on the bubble

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01-28-2011 , 01:36 PM

twistedbeats

adept

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 776

Poker Stars $5.00+$0.24 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t200/t400 Blinds + t50 - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

BTN: t1053 M = 1.17
Hero (SB): t1167 M = 1.30
BB: t8745 M = 9.72
UTG: t590 M = 0.66
MP: t1915 M = 2.13
CO: t1530 M = 1.70

Pre Flop: (t900) Hero is SB with Q

1 fold, MP raises to t1865 all in, 2 folds, Hero?

big stack wasn't calling raises, although he was pwning a little. he had put the little stack all in with junk already, so no worries about a walk. villain was playing about one hand a rotation. who plays here and who hopes for an elimination?

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01-28-2011 , 01:47 PM

penfold

banned

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,279

Well this is a fold KK spot in a normal DoN but I fail to see how you can't call here. There is one huge stack winning all the money so what's the point in just getting your money back when you need to get chips to win something worth winning? This is the type of thing I mean that is puzzling with these games. What are we supposed to do here, aim to not bubble or go for some money?

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01-28-2011 , 01:47 PM

Sundrew

enthusiast

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 62

I always call this one. The blinds are big, and he is pushing any pair, Ax combo and any broadway.
If u double up, u can start challening the BIGSTACK for the win.

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01-28-2011 , 01:49 PM

penfold

banned

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,279

Pokerstove will be of no value whatsoever.

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01-28-2011 , 02:17 PM

POKEROMGLOL

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 5,980

Quote:

Originally Posted by penfold

Well this is a fold KK spot in a normal DoN but I fail to see how you can't call here. There is one huge stack winning all the money so what's the point in just getting your money back when you need to get chips to win something worth winning? This is the type of thing I mean that is puzzling with these games. What are we supposed to do here, aim to not bubble or go for some money?

1. I think it is a call. None of the others are short enough imo to justify a fold, and on top of that, he's really only needing to dodge the BB, who is probably in shut down mode. His range easily has a bunch of low pocket pairs, AJ AQ, etc. to allow for a call.

2. re: bolded part. Not really true. Look at anyone's average profit per stt... It isn't sexy to sneak in the $ at a 50/50, but it's still by far #1 priority.

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01-28-2011 , 02:24 PM

penfold

banned

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,279

Quote:

Originally Posted by POKEROMGLOL

None of the others are short enough imo to justify a fold

It doens't get any shorter than utg about to be engulfed by the bb next hand?

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Originally Posted by POKEROMGLOL

It isn't sexy to sneak in the $ at a 50/50, but it's still by far #1 priority.

Where is the theory to back this up? It's definitely the case for DoN's because everyone wins the same amount no matter how many chips you have. This is a completely different game altogether. Sneaking itm isn't the priorty at all, having the most chips possible is. So there is a compromise needed and I've no clue how ICM would figure this out. Maybe I'm being dumb...

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02-26-2011 , 09:59 PM

iluvsheesh

journeyman

Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 273

Plugging this into the Wiz with a 60,10,10,10,10 structure(this is ICM eq to the 50/50 format) this is a very easy call with QQ. Plus EV to call with range of 99+,AQs+,AK.

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02-26-2011 , 11:10 PM

TruFloridaGator

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Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 22,792

Quote:

Originally Posted by iluvsheesh

Plugging this into the Wiz with a 60,10,10,10,10 structure(this is ICM eq to the 50/50 format) this is a very easy call with QQ. Plus EV to call with range of 99+,AQs+,AK.

That's a bit too wide. You're giving Villain way too wide of a range in this spot with the shorty about to be all-in next hand.

JJ+ type of spot or TT+,AKs vs these maniac regs I see so far in these games.

Our equity gain is massive in this spot when we win, so we can go wider in Fifty50s in these types of spots.

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02-27-2011 , 12:11 AM

iluvsheesh

journeyman

Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 273

True, ICM can't account for "shorty' being virtually all-in next hand. On the other hand,
villain's range would tend to be widened by two nother nonquantifiable effects:
1)read that there was unusual reluctance of bigstack to call shoves
2)"shorty" being all-in is not as hopeless for him as in a DON since the likelihood of
a multiplayer cooperation play is greatly reduced

Overall, disregarding allf the above, Nash eq says villans range should be about 23%.
For our heros calling range to be as tight as even TT+,AK villain would have to be much tighter than Nash or about 17.5%

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02-27-2011 , 12:38 AM

#10

TruFloridaGator

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Nash is really silly to consider most of the time, but especially here based on read & stack setups.

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02-27-2011 , 01:02 AM

#11

TomoDaK

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 5,837

folding seems silly, flat

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02-27-2011 , 01:52 AM

#12

iluvsheesh

journeyman

Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 273

Quote:

Originally Posted by TruFloridaGator

Nash is really silly to consider most of the time, but especially here based on read & stack setups.

I hate to belabor this but please could you educate me as to:

1)Why Nash is "really silly" to consider most of the time
2)Do you have a better alternative other just "know everyones ranges"
in every possible spot

I mean no disrespect , I'm just trying to both contribute and learn from this forum

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02-27-2011 , 09:50 AM

#13

jukofyork

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iluvsheesh

1)Why Nash is "really silly" to consider most of the time

1) Low limit players are rarely playing anything like NE themselves.
2) It uses the ICM function to evaluate future equity (with all it's flaws) and it's especially wrong in spots like this where the movement of the blinds in future hands is very significant.

Juk

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02-27-2011 , 04:00 PM

#14

iluvsheesh

journeyman

Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 273

OK Juk, I see what you are saying for this specific hand. My question is, in a more general sense, lets say we have the same hand and stacks but the buyin was $104.32 and the blinds/antes were lets say 50/100/10 what would your opinion on the applicability of NE be now?

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02-27-2011 , 05:33 PM

#15

mynameis69

adept

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 993

id find it hard to fold tbh,but i found at this level that alot of players shove preflop with aces or kings (with a big stack) even without a raise behind them,i think they try and make it look as if there trying to be the bully or something so ppl with a decent had wil call, its hard to explain,call and if he turns over aces or kings then jus take a note of his play

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02-27-2011 , 08:21 PM

#16

jukofyork

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iluvsheesh

With skilled players and no very short players (in terms of BBs) then yes the NE ranges will be very close to correct, but with a "new" game type it's unlikely all players will be that skilled yet.

Juk

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02-27-2011 , 08:39 PM

#17

TruFloridaGator

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iluvsheesh

Other than what Juk said, we can estimate a range based on HUD(number of diff stats), over a big sample we can use the HEM VPIP/PFR per BB chart, we can look at how they have been playing recently, what kind of stacks they're shoving through, how deep their stack is, and other factors. We won't ever be perfect, but we can narrow them down enough(and usually on the tighter/safe side) to call correct as often as possible.

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02-28-2011 , 02:33 AM

#18

OMGClayDol

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Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 11,065

doesnt matter so much since the sng wiz seems to have 50/50s now, and i dont even play them lol but just curious can anyone confirm the icm equivelant to be 60/10/10/10/10?

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02-28-2011 , 02:47 AM

#19

TomoDaK

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 5,837

^ yup, saw juk and some1 else discussing that

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05-02-2011 , 01:06 PM

#20

strategic12

centurion

Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 147

Good hand but I do not want to be eliminated. The shortstack is desperate. The bigstack can be loose. I fold.

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05-02-2011 , 03:29 PM

#21

SkinnyStax

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 3,604

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomoDaK

folding seems silly, flat

This ainec

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05-03-2011 , 12:36 PM

#22

strategic12

centurion

Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 147

I can be wrong.

Anyway, AINEC is "And It's Not Even Close".

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05-03-2011 , 08:03 PM

#23

SkinnyStax

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 3,604

yes

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