I haven't been on here in quite some time, but due to a career change, I have been playing poker full time for about a year now. I mostly stick to cash games and have had some reasonable success.

I enjoy firing at the occasional deep stack tournament and this hand came up part way through the Monster Stack this year during the WSOP.


Hero: TAG. I'm opening about 26% of hands from the cutoff and haven't had many showdowns

Villain 1: Solid. Been avoiding playing pots against me, even though he has position.

Villain 2: Younger Asian guy who likes to take stabs here and there. Active but generally not balanced.

Blinds: 300/600, Ante: 75

Folds to CO
Hero (50k) opens with Qh Qs in CO to 1400
V1 (30k) calls from BTN
V2 (50k+) calls from BB

Flop: 8s 7s 3s
V2 checks
Hero bets 1800
V1 calls
V2 calls

Turn: Qc
V2 checks
Hero bets 3800
V1 calls
V2 calls

River: Td
V2 checks
Hero checks
V1 bets 8500
V2 folds
Hero calls


I'm posting this hand because I'd be interested to hear thoughts on every street.

I might have checked the flop. You aren't getting the lone Ace of spades to fold, indeed you could easily be raised or check raised by hands with the Ace. The other streets seem pretty easy to me. I probably would have bet slightly larger on the turn, but bet sizing isn't easy on boards like this in multi way pots.

Why cbet here?
Rest looks fine, sigh call otr

I think there are a lot of hands I lose value from by checking. Sure, someone could have a flush, but it is more likely that they don't. Hands I get value from are JJ, TT, 99, 66, 55, 44, T9s, JTs, 65s, 8x, the ace of spades, and the king of spades. Additionally, I'm letting hands like KJ of diamonds negative freeroll me, since I won't be folding to one bet if, for example, a K of hearts pops out but they're not calling a bet if the K of hearts doesn't pop out.

Definitely not betting flop vs. two villains here.

I would consider turn bet but would might give V1 a opportunity to bluff turn in position sometimes.

Obviously calling river here whenever a fourth club doesn't appear so if we're sigh calling, let's keep it manageable. Winning 10k here puts you at 100bb. Losing 15k puts you at less than 60bb.

Not worried about straights here. If BB has J9o/96o, so be it.

As played, call river (and 100% do not show if you're beat).

I'm okay with that... but why? It seems people are saying they're not betting the flop, but there isn't really a good reason why. Can we quickly run through that?

Your hand doesn;t benefit that much from protection. The KJ hand you quoted has 2 outs. You can still get value from lesser one pair hands on the turn.

I guess the point is your hand isn't getting 3 streets of value from worse. Being raised or check raised is ugly.

Wtf why are people saying not to cbet an overpair with the 3rd nut flushdraw? We have the mortal nuts until people start raising, go get some value ffs.

River is annoying but not that annoying and we just call, would probably prefer to bet myself though. He could easily have a slowplayed/careful set or 2 pair, or be bluffing with a missed draw.

A 26rfi from co obv has a lot more than that. Dont think your logic makes much sense 3way

What are you talking about? We have QQ with the Qs. We're at the monster stack at the wsop. Go get some value, who cares what our range is, they're gonna call if they have something and we're gonna print money.

Will the villain with KJd know to bet a King, but not a jack? So, he has 2 outs to improve to a hand that can beat you, and 2 outs to improve to a hand that can CALL you.

I still think you can get value from those one pair hands you quote if you bet a blank turn.

I think this flop is a bet in a multiway pot. What card you happy to see on the turn? The Ace of Spades?

You will get value from worse hands. On the flop.

I think the river is a call. But I would prefer to bet/fold the river.

Flop is a bet 100%. Like if you're not betting QsQx for value here, wtf are you c-betting for value on this flop?

I like c/c on the river. I don't think there's many worse hands you're getting 3 streets of value from. Plenty of AsXx hands will stab at the river just because the pot is so huge and both opponents check on the river.

I don't think we're getting three streets of value that often, so we'll likely have to check somewhere. Personally prefer betting flop to get value from draws, 8x, some 7x and worse overpairs, because there are lots of cards that will kill action on later streets.

I think bet with the intention of checking turn most of the time is better than checking with the intention of betting turn, but I don't think the latter is a disaster or anything.

This

All fine

Wouldn't bet river blocking TPs.
Eff SPR is like 1.5 so you would bet small, BTN basically have no worse to comfortably call w/ player behind (worse sets) and BB will jam a bit on you.

You don't mind cbetting for protection even 3way.
4-5 way OOP we should narrow down our betting range. And yeah wsop makes difference.

If hero is opening 26%, he should have all of the sets and all of the nut flushes and several non nut flushes. Probably should check some of the nut flushes, like AK, since that blocks second nut flush, and AJ or AT since that blocks the bigger connectors that are surely in opponents ranges.

Also, hero has hands where he does need protection, like 99-JJ, which have far more overcards to fear than QQ does.

It's the monster stack at the wsop, we're not playing vs Doug Polk and Ike Haxton here.

Those of you advocating a check otf: what kind of hands are you c-betting here then? If we only bet sets and flushes, aren't we really unbalanced? If BTN is solid and sees us check to him, that's easily exploitable.

I say well played op.

I'll say I like the line and would have played it the same except for sizing. Both your flop bet and turn bet were 1/3 pot, and I feel like you should be value betting a little more aggressively instead of just pot controlling. I'd be nervous about what the turn and river would bring, too, but I still want to get money into this pot.

Flop was 1800 into 5175 - 2500 to 3k seems ideal, maybe even a touch more

Turn was 3800 into 10575 - 6kish sizing (not too big, not too small...had you bet more on the flop, you could bet a slightly smaller % here to keep more hands around now that you turned top set)

River - I like checking with the intentional to call button. You lose possible value when he checks behind, but you win more when he bluffs, you win more when he value bets worse hands, and you save money when he has the flush and would have put you in a bad spot with a river raise. It also narrows BB's range in an extreme way for free for you after button bets river and BB is forced to act.

Overpairs without a spade, sets, flushes.

If you are cbetting all overpairs with a spade, what are you checking with then that can call down multiple streets? You have so many hands that want to give up here. X'cing some overpairs with a spade seems pretty reasonable

I prob bet 99/1010 for sure without a spade since a lot of overcards can come ott

99/1010 with a spade*

Bet is fine otf so is check it's not that big a deal as everyone's making it here. I'd slIgjtly prefer better just cuz it's live poker and ppl will be super wide and loose and cally and not be doing a ton of c/r bluffing and putting you in gross spots
Anyway I'd just bet river myself why are you checking? To induce? The 10 is like one of better non board pairing rivers

The types of hands that aren't already a flush that the villains can have include the straight, sets, two pair, one pair, and busted flush draws. All hands that can call a bet from me on the river are flushes, straights, sets, and two pair. The T doesn't seem like a terrible card at first, but it devalues a hand like A8s, 98s, or A7s. This makes it less likely I get value from one pair type hands.

Sets are definitely calling a bet and I also think they're often betting if I check.

Two pair would call a bet but might likely check if I check. There are only three combinations of two pair, though. So if we can get value from three combinations by checking instead, this is a wash.

I think most one pair hands are folding at this point. It is very unlikely they have a Q. And if they had a T, they were probably only calling the turn because of a straight draw to accompany it, which has now bricked out.

None of the draws will call a bet, but many of them may bet if I check.

So instead of trying to get value from the three combos of hands here (two pair) by betting, I opted to try to get value from hands that could potentially bet that would normally fold.

Gotcha. Thanks, this makes mucho sense.