Hey guys I got a real donkey here for you to look at.

This dummy comes in with T8s on the SB in a pre raised pot.

Here's the hand..

Damn these small stakes donks keep f'ing me over....

http://hand2note.com/Hands/Hand/srNv...hGXt0yqg%3D%3D

Without context (reads, prior action, etc) this isn't necessarily a bad play. What is clear is that your Hero overplayed his hand on the river and value-owned himself.

Beyond that, these were the two deepest stacks at the table and therefore, there were a ton of implied odds for your villain. Given the way the action went, I would guess that there was some history there.

Villain invested 3.5bb to win 82.4bb strange. 23.5:1 seems OK to me.

So.....guy overcalls which typically means a speculative hand like suited connectors or PP set mining.

Said guy donks on draw heavy flop, and calls your raise.

One of the draws gets there immediately and you're shoving river with TPTK.......


What was the river jam supposed to accomplish? Hoping he donked with a 9 or 7??

If he was on a FD, he's folding. He's probably folding anything less than 2p as you played your hand face up like AK or QQ+ (not a bad thing. just realize he can easily put you on TPTK or an overpaid here).

Should be a red flag he called the flop raise, and after a checked turn, lead into you again on river when a K comes in.


He either has air which he's folding to a raise, a thin value bet that he's also folding to a raise, or he can beat AK and QQ+


Your range here is basically a crying call bluff catcher. Even JJ sometimes.

I was betting for value for my hand. Guy would play this way with King Queen suited. King Jack. Suited kings, etc. This is a $5 or $10 small stakes tournament. Only hands I lose to that make sense to me are 99 (1 combo), 77 (1 combo), and 55 (1 combo), a lot of Ax, failed suited connectors. King 9 suited as well. I don't know how this guy came in here with T8 so I would never even consider that hand. This guy loves to splash in with suited hands.

interesting. That screams Ace x suited, King x suited, King Queen, set mining small pairs, etc.

This guy loves to get in any hand with a suited hand and try to hit a flush. I definitely got value owned this time LOL.

I don't see much wrong with the way SB played this hand... flatting out of the small blind with a suited 1-gapper might be ambitious but the price was good, and after that the hand sort of played itself for him IMO.

Or are you saying YOU are the Donkey of the Day for how you played your AKo? Let's consider:

• 3.5x overbet preflop (most thinking players agree 2x - 2.5x is best preflop sizing)
• pot-sized raise on wet board with naked AKo on flop
• raise all in with bluff catcher on even wetter board on river

So yes, I would agree that you are the Donkey of the Day.

I'd take some time to study up on thin value betting.


You already got your value when he lead into you. Your jam is now basically a bluff, and not a very good one. Especially with having so much showdown value.

I'd also study up on speculative hands. His overcall with T8s is not a bad play.

And his call on your flop raise is big time implied odds for him and big time reverse implied odds for you.


He's going to put you on an overpaid, and knows he will likely get your stack if he connects with his straight. He's likely folding all turns that don't complete his hand or increase his equity. And not putting in another dime if not. So, he's only risking that single amount to call your flop raise and getting your stack if he doesn't fold the turn or river. Its a good spot for him.




A big time leak is not being able to objectively analyze our mistakes. We are all guilty of this.

You played the hand fine-ish on flop (a call or jam is probably better here than raise). But you overvalued and value owned yourself on the river. A river call was the optimal decision. You could fold in very rare/special circumstances.

But jamming is going to be -EV in the long run.


I'd have rather seen a flop jam than river here.

Also, donk bets at lower stakes are usually **** like second pair, or top pair on a low board. Or a draw.


So, when one of the draws comes in, its time to be cautious after a donk bet that doesn't fold to a raise.

I did a very similar exploit the other day. I had 86s in the BB. With a UTG open by a player who will overvalue TP+ regardless of board and facing aggression.

$15 pre and we were heads up. So about a $30 pot.


Flop is 7 4 3r

I check. V bets $30


Now, I know him very well and his pot size bet basically tells me he's going with this hand. Likely has an overpair. Or possibly 66 or 76

He has $500 behind and is inelastic when he decides to go with it.

So, if I hit my 4 outer 5ball, I'm likely stacking him. He won't fold an overpair, and if he has a 6, he's never folding either.


So, calling 30 here is basically not a good idea normally. However, I'm never putting another dollar into this pot (unless he bets small on brick turn of course).

And I'm getting his stack when I do hit. 30 to win 500


Turn is my gin 5.

I check. He bets $60. Which absolutely tells me he's committed based on past history. I don't even worry about just 2! 3x or so. I take about 10s, then jam. He almost snap calls. Took about 3 sec to think.



And is furious seeing the gut shot. But he's not objective enough to realize he's playing extremely exploitive.

I hear you but AK is literally the only nuts that get to the river on this board and a 3.5 opened pot other than some small pairs hitting a set but there's way more Kx than pair combos here. T8 shouldn't even be here unless dude thinks it's time to splash with T8s. 3.5 clears most of the players and gives AK the best chance of winning (AJ, AQ, KQs), and small pairs. Also it polarizes their hand strength (unless they want to call me light with T8)

Ok. I guess I have to be more careful. Thanks. Can't wait to get someone myself with T8s LOL. I know they have great implied odds, but I just end up losing too much speculating with them.

LOL. Nice job. How do you make sure you don't end up losing so much money on these types of hands? I used to play them from late position but it just ends up hitting so rarely that I just end up folding them and having more blinds to run deep. It's like playing an additional blind for me that way it's been going with them types of hands, and I want to get better with those for sure since they make sneaky 2 pairs, straights, and flushes with great implied odds.

What you need to do is compare the thoughts that Don expressed when he described his hand and the complete lack of thoughts and reasons in your initial post. That's the difference between playing mid-suited gappers profitably and losing with them.

To summarize, Don evaluated his opponent's playing style and made predictions of his behavior, based on prior behavior. Then applied a bit of poker math and proceeded. If something didn't match up, I'm sure he would have given up, such as whiffing the turn and facing a bet too large to call.

Hey I hear what you're saying however I did think about the hand all the way through. Just read my responses to Don and you're see what I though, the various combos Villian could of had here, and how T8o is literally not going to be called for 3.5x. This was a small stakes game not a high roller with people balancing their ranges. Thanks for your input anyway.

A few things.

- You can absolutely still use optimal game theory at low stakes. Much more so than people want to believe. Anyone saying otherwise is just not very well informed. Obviously you need to modify based on the game and player. But game theory is game theory.

- We are pointing out that your logic here is flawed. In your mind, V *should* never have T8. However, in reality, its definitely not anything that surprises anyone with a bit of knowledge. He overcalled. T8 is absolutely in his range. Even more so if he's played with your or sees your stats and they indicate (very likely given your logic in a couple threads, no offense intended) that you are playing mostly premium hands and will ship it semi-light against bigger hands.

Remember, he flatted from the SB. A spot where many will be 3! or folding (maybe not tournaments, I'm a cash player, but should be relevant still).


Just at a basic level, lets see what hands would be totally willing to bet/call your river raise after you raised pre, raised flop, and checked turn on a 975JK board:

T8 and 86
J9 J7 97 75 K9 K7 K5 (K5 and K7 less likely, but not zero)

99 77 55 JJ (JJ very unlikely)

You also put him on KJ which I would definitely not put in his donk and call range after the flop action. Regardless, you lose to KJ.

These are all hands that would be willing to call you river raise without much question. Some of the smaller two pair may be a short tank.


Now, what hands can they make a crying call with we get paid for:

A9 K9

Maybe TT if he didn't 3! pre. Maybe 88


*BUT* the big red flag is how good a card the K is for your range. I'd have much rather seen you have AA or KK on a J high board jamming river.

Jamming on a K river after he already bet is just bad all the way around. The K is very, very bad for his range, and very, very good for your range. And he lead into you anyway.


Any 9 or somehow J is going to be looking to get to a showdown. Not essentially turn his hand into a bluff.


Read through all of the above and objectively analyze how you're looking at this hand and see that what actually likely happened is you thought "I have AK and there's a K, I should be shoving."

Which is perfectly normal. We all have these tendencies and we have to work really, really hard to stop it. I was a pay off wizard in 50nl zoom until very, very recently. And it took a lot of work and objective self criticism to fix it. And it takes a ton of discipline to keep it fixed.

Well, to begin with, play them far less than you feel like you should. And typically only in late position or in an overcalling position and closing the action like your T8 guy.

Then, you have to be very, very disciplined and very specific in what you're looking to continue with. A huge, huge leak is completely whiffing and then turning into a bluff isn the wrong spot. Also, you'll miss more than you hit. So if you're mostly turning them into bluffs after, you're going to be over bluffing.

Which is why using some rng and or specific board textures to pick your bluffs is far superior than "well, last time I didn't bluff, this time I will" as humans are terrible at recalling stuff like that and are heavily biased based on the current emotion.


When I say very specific, I mean like my post above. With 86s I'm looking for boards like A66, A97, 743, etc etc. And also flush boards.

However, I'm much more interested in straights or small trips than I am in flushes. Flushes are always obvious and always on everyone's mind because there's 9 outs instead of 8 straight outs and for some reason, people pay more attention. Also, you'll run into suited A and K's from time to time.

Straights are much more hidden even though they shouldn't be. And people stack off to straights far, far more.


I'm also looking to target specific players and/or hands. In my example above, I'm looking for a specific player who stacks off with TP and sometimes works (this player does) and/or someone who has a 6 in their hand that will never fold that straight. When the 5 comes in, even if its not this actual player, but others at live low stakes, I can massively overbet the pot and get calls from 6's who think I'm either bluffing or trying to push them off a chop.

Like, they will call comedically large bets with a 6. Its ridiculous how much +EV this type of situation is at live low stakes with the right players.

That's what makes it a +EV play in the long run. You miss almost every time, but you're done and fold immediately. But when you hit, you get paid off massively that makes up for it and then some.

But, if you're playing against a nit or someone aware enough to not stack off, then you fold these preflop or immediately when you're looking for a 4 outer that doesn't get you paid.

I also forgot to mention, the main reason I play these suited, even though I'm looking for straights is balance.

Theres far less suited combos. So I don't have to mix frequencies when I'm calling with 16 different possibilities.

Of course the flushes you make will help keep you pretty close to +EV until you can get paid off.


Higher limits and/or better players, these hands become harder to play and pay off less frequently. So its a bit different strategy.



For example, at live low stakes, you can bet 2 or 3x or even more of the pot with a nut flush and get paid by a non nut flush enough to make the overbet worth it. That doesn't work so well with better players.

If you want a puzzling hand that will make your noodle spin, here's a scenario.


Due to preflop action, V doesn't have any over pairs. Just trust me on this without long explanation. He was passive preflop and is now very aggressive on the following board:


T 9 7 2 3 no flush possible


Figure out why when V shoves, in a lot of scenarios you should be mostly calling with TT, calling and folding equally with 99, and almost always folding 77 here.

But in some scenarios you would jam A8, K8, and 88.



This is a very, very good scenario to work on figuring out what hands V could have that's interested in this runout, while also looking at your range and what you actually have blocks or unblocks for your V.

Here's a perfect example of how you play your hand face up if you don't mix in calling and raising frequencies. And especially at the wrong time.


I just played this hand on 50nl Blitz (zoom) on ACR.

HJ: (107bb) raises to 2.5bb
Hero(CO): raises to 7.5bb w KhJc (this was a mistake. I'm trying to use my charts less and less. I should be folding KJo and raising KJs to a HJ open. But its only a minor mistake)

V: BB cold calls 7.5bb


So, this is not a good spot to be cold calling unless you have something like AKs and think the HJ is going to 4! and you're planning on back jamming. Even then.....its just not a great spot to cold call in the middle and OOP.

This is also very likely a pp like 22-TT/JJ (depends on V. Some are cold 4! TT and JJ) or middling suited connectors. So, the odds that you are playing your hand face up are likely.

HJ: folds


Pot: 18bb

Flop: 6d3s6h

So, Hero's range is A9s+ A5/4/3s, KTs+, QJs+, AJ/Q/Ko, and 99+. No real 6's. and only 4 combos of A3s

But, considering most of our range is ahead all but the V's middling pairs, this is a fairly dry board and worth Cbet to take pot down from any middling connectors that could hit turn.

V: checks
Hero: bets 6bb (1/3). This sizing is fine as V is likely calling or folding to anything that isn't close to pot size or more. When he does call, we save vs using 1/2 or 3/4 pot.
V: Calls 6bb

Pot: 29bb

Turn: 6d3s6h Js

V: checks

This is a good card for us. Doesn't complete anything for V and likely gives us the best hand. Unless V has middling connectors with a 6 or 33. I need to run this in a sim, but I think we can bet or check behind here.

I personally prefer to check behind. Little bit of pot control so we don't balloon the pot with just top pair. Its possible V can have AJs here as well. Not sure if he'd float flop, but with backdoor possibility and overlords, its definitely possible.

This also gives V the opportunity to either bluff with his missed connectors or value own himself with TT, 99, 88.....etc.

Hero: checks

Pot: 29bb

River: 6d3s6hJs 7h

This is an interesting card. If V had 76s, we were already almost dead, so doesn't change on that front. But, 77 now gets there that beats us. On the other hand, T7, 97, 87, also got there.

So, I think at this point its pretty easy decision. Call most any bet from V. Or bet/fold for value if he checks.

His hand is basically face up at this point. He probably bets TT, 99, 88, for value thinking he could be good. Probably bets most 6's and full house. Though he may attempt a check raise. In which case we bet/fold for value.

If he checks and we make a value bet, anything containing a 7 will be very tempted to make a hero call with the line we took. Some middling pairs that he didn't want to value bet will also be tempted.

He'll raise all his big hands that are trips or better.

If he's good enough to cold call in between and then c/r bluff this river......well, good for him. He wins.

V: bets 22bb

Hero: takes most of the time available just to make sure we aren't being a payoff wizard. Everything seems fine. Hero calls 22bb

V: shows TT and hero takes down 72bb pot.




Moral of story: V should be 4! or folding mostly here. And TT should definitely be in his range. Probably something like always 4! AA/KK and AK. Probably QQ. JJ should probably be a mix of raise or call. QQ could as well. KJs and Tis might be calls. Toss in an A5s as a cold 4! bluff and you have a good range.

And since its a cold 4!, I'd do very little calling frequency. And I'd probably mix in some call/back jams with AK and AA so I'm balanced.

If you don't mix in some call/back jams, you basically end up like this guy, getting snap called (in theory, though I took my time) With TP and not top kicker pretty easily.

Also worth noting, if after hands you want to look at later........you can't think/type/write down all these kinds of thoughts, study study study.

Your short descriptions and thoughts will turn into pretty detailed game trees. Will be overwhelming at first, but gets easier and really helps you at table to be able to process all this stuff.

You are name calling someone who was able to get all his money in with a straight when you were eager to put money in with just overcards and then one pair. Aside from understanding that it is fairly standard for people to call raises with hands like T8s, you have to know that they can also have A9, or A7 or A5 - all hands that have AK dominated after the flop. When you describe the only hands you lose to that make sense, you state that there is one combo of 77 and one of 55 and one of 99. A little more work with combos might demonstrate that there is more than one combo of a pocket pair.

I'm also curious about your raise sizing. You make a point of using 3.5x here, and pointing out that it should be enough to fold out a lot of bad hands. Is 3.5 your standard, or do you vary based on what type of hand you have or your position?

Lol on the 3.5x sizing. In live 1/3 games, the standard open is $15, or 5x sizing. You see, in the low-blind NL games, bet sizing is less related to the blinds than to the stack sizes. The reason is simple, implied odds. Even players that don't understand the math, know they can win more if their opponent has more. That is why people open up more when stacks are deep.

How did this migrate to the MTT forum?

Anyhow, OP, you should listen to everyone. SBs call in a multi-way with a speculative one-gap suited hand and 66 bbs eff, is very standard. Moreover, the flop favors SBs range here, so slow down. Raising SBs donk with just overs is generally not good.

But you raised the flop, clearly representing an overpair. Turn completes only 1 draw (happens to be the one SB had). So if you were going to sell an overpair here, why did you stop firing on the turn? Fire again (and stay true to your story), and you'll lose less, as V will pile here, and you can get out with just overcards.

Then the river is a disaster. As everyone explained, you turned a solid value hand/bluff catcher into a bluff when QT also gets there, J9 already beats you??? River is a soul-search here and should be a call or fold that's read dependent ... not a pile that's not going to get any better hands to fold ... or do you think you could take V off of J9s here? ... or worse hands to call (Only KX is a possibility).