10 players left in the $4.40 180-man MTT on PokerStars.
We're playing hand-for-hand at two tables and I'm sixth, with one shorter stack than me at my table and two smaller at the other, including a player with an M of around 3.5.
The cash jumps up a little when reaching the final table but I'm trying to win the tourney/go very deep (ie top 3).
I've been the aggressor at our five-handed table, raising any unopened pot and mostly stealing blinds, occasionally laying down to a show of strength.
This time I pick up a genuine big hand and raise 3xBB from the button.
BB calls and I make a set on the flop, with two hearts.
Decide to check behind, bet out at the turn now with three hearts on the board.
Get re-raised - at this stage I put him on a group of hands that include flush and straight draws, A-K through K-Q, K-J. Maybe he has A-Q but I have still have outs for the boat.
So I shove and he tanks for about 20 seconds and calls with a pair of 8s and the flush draw and rivers the Ah and I'm out in 10th spot.
Should I have just C-bet the flop, picked up the pot there - am pretty sure he would have folded then - or was it worth letting him catch up a little - still an 81% fave after the turn - and give myself a chance to double up and make me a bigger stack entering the final table?
btw, if he had re-raised on the flop, which there was some chance of given my previous style of play and his stack size - I would have been shoving then.
All thoughts greatly appreciated.



*********** # 214 **************
PokerStars Game #19076530993: Tournament #97745178, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level XII (500/1000) - 2008/07/24 - 20:17:03 (ET)
Table '97745178 7' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: nycasablanca (26840 in chips)
Seat 2: Jazzpaeren (46850 in chips)
Seat 3: SunyP (43338 in chips)
Seat 4: kimi34 (14453 in chips)
Seat 5: ivanlendlten (17630 in chips)
nycasablanca: posts the ante 100
Jazzpaeren: posts the ante 100
SunyP: posts the ante 100
kimi34: posts the ante 100
ivanlendlten: posts the ante 100
nycasablanca: posts small blind 500
Jazzpaeren: posts big blind 1000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ivanlendlten [Td Tc]
SunyP: folds
kimi34: folds
ivanlendlten: raises 2000 to 3000
nycasablanca: folds
Jazzpaeren: calls 2000
*** FLOP *** [3d Kh Th]
Jazzpaeren: checks
ivanlendlten: checks
*** TURN *** [3d Kh Th] [Jh]
Jazzpaeren: checks
ivanlendlten: bets 4000
Jazzpaeren: raises 7000 to 11000
ivanlendlten: raises 3530 to 14530 and is all-in
Jazzpaeren: calls 3530
*** RIVER *** [3d Kh Th Jh] [Ah]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Jazzpaeren: shows [8h 8s] (a flush, Ace high)
ivanlendlten: shows [Td Tc] (three of a kind, Tens)
Jazzpaeren collected 36060 from pot

Bet the flop 110% of the time. c/c turn. fold river. (And you might not want to post the results if you want un-biased answers).

As played, you have to call the turn because you under-represented your hand on the flop. He might check-raise with two pair, a combo draw, or a made hand -- you just don't know because you didn't bet the flop.

Thanks. I think if I bet the flop it's the end of the action, with two overcards to his 8s.
Any other thoughts. Have only been playing online for a short while and trying to work my way up.

Don't think about this hand from the perspective that he actually had 88. Hindsight is 20/20, and ya you would have picked up the pot. But you have to bet out here. According to the ranges you put him on, that flop hits him hard most of the time, but nothing that beats you. Bet the flop, and either take the pot down or get happily checkraised with with Kx or a FD. Don't slowplay, esp this late with a fair amount on money in the pot. Any amount of chips pushed your way is a good thing.

Shove PF. Shove PF.

Shove PF. Shove PF

Shove PF. Shove PF

Why are we dicking around with TT like this? Are we hoping for overcards to Flop? What's our line then?

TT is NOT a "genuine big hand" when any of 4 overcards flopping will send you into the tank.

As played, checking this Flop is worse that not shoving PF. Any A, Q, J, 9 or heart is just ugly on the Turn.

Thanks guys, all advice gratefully considered.

lol, sorry you got the guy drawing dead to a heart?

wtf?

shove pre tho, for realz.

Why?? Here's why I think why not:
a) I don't think you get looked up weak as your stack represents a good portion of both the blinds, and its the FT bubble. Either a big pair or two big cards, which if 3 big cards flop you're stacked instead of stuck 3k.
b) Raising the button could induce shoves with MUCH weaker hands.
c) You're losing value from a solid short handed hand.

A and C could be argued, but B is true... but I just don't like the open shove.

Shoving 17.5 BBs pre seems a little too much to push imo. Can't we try to induce resteals or check/raises with air or something?

With only 17.5BB and TT? Nah. Too clever at this late stage.

Raising 3BB is is actually committing 20% of our stack to a hand very susceptible to overcards.

I think the raise is fine with TT, on a $4 I would cbet any flop and we can always fold if somebody shows strenght( we cant fold PF though). I would have bet the flop though because u want to cbet ure good hands as well specially if you have been LAG recently.

If I get looked up by a big hand...oh well.

Better that than committing 20% of my stack to a hand that gets frozen when any A or paint flops.

I'm not losing any value by shoving here, I'm just not volunteering to wear a "kick me" sign by joyfully inviting overcards to Flop on the cheap

Why do you suppose we are going to get beaten every time an overcard flops? Quite frequently OP will bet 3500 and take it down.

Yeah, yeah, I get all of this and it makes a lot of sense. For some reason I just can't see shoving here. Maybe a leak, maybe an either or.

Another question we should be thinking about is what should we do with all the not-so-good hands we're stealing with? Presumably we're raising at least 25% of the time here, and possibly closer to 40%. I know about "lol-microstakes-metagames" and all, but shoving good hands and raising 2.5x-3x BB with bad hands (or vice versa) surely has to be one of the most likely things a player would notice.

Right. Deeper stacks, earlier in the tournament, that's a terrific strategy. When a 3BB raise is 20% of our stack I don't think we should be getting clever

Have to bet the flop, and hope it hit him. Too many draws to give a free card to hearts or a gutshot.

- Misery loves company, bitterness just wants to be left alone

lol, shoving pre is awful. how is raising with tens getting clever? i would raise this pre with his stack all day.

I wish you well in these endeavors, and I think all your Villains feel the same way.

pre is fine, personally i feel like shoving pre is terrible, 1010 is just 2 strong to shove for 17bbs, jeez ur playing morons if u can't play better than them postflop yes shove but really. u have 2 bet the flop, its just 2 drawy 2 slowplay.

oh yes and 1010 is a genuine big hand 5 handed, not particularly deep. as played i still get in on turn, 2 many 2 pairs, flush draws etc to fold and

lol hu for rollz?

lol at betting TT 5handed with 17BB being "clever", I usually think the "lets see a flop and outplay ure oponents there" argument is big time bs but I guess it kinda aplies here. Are you also shoving KK? Is your plan to shove anything but AA/KK and hope nobody notices?? This may be a 4 dollar tourney but its also really deep, while this guys are not phil ivey I think they will realize that the guy that has only been shoving suddenly just raised to 3x the BB

BBV imo

pushing is pretty meh, pushing like 22 is fine but TT is too strong.

bet flop, if you don't turn is fine, just a bad beat

pushing 22 is wrong.