Hey Everyone,

Being primarily a cash game player I was hoping someone could help define MTT/SNG volume for me from a cash perspective.

If possible, I would love to look at MTT/SNG volume as an equivalent of hands.

Ex: 1k MTT/SNGs would be the same as a 100k hand sample.

Kind of a weird question but I think it is clear?

Also, what is the best way to measure ABI and stakes in MTT/SNGs in comparison to a cash player? As in a MTT/SNG player that plays up to $20 games, would be equivalent to a NL___ cash player.

Just trying to understand where MTT and SnG players stand and I feel like this would be the perfect way for me.

Thanks to anyone who manages to work through that mess and give me any sort of answer lol.

i think it's pretty easy to see how many hands you've played in a given time period no matter if it's mtts or cash in most databases. For example if you played 3k mtts in the last month you should be able to see it equates to 100k hands or w/e

Plus it depends heavily on what mtts you are playing. 180 grinders will have a higher volume per day than big field mtters. If they are playing the same # of tables, I would think a micro cash grinder should be roughly the same amount of hands as a midstakes grinder

It would strongly depends on your game selection.
Different tournaments have different fields sizes, structures etc...
it all affects how many hands you would have to play in a single tournament on average.

But your example is close to be correct I guess.
I checked database, I played 665 tournies on Stars last month with $15-$20 abi and its 54k hands.


Imo good $20 mtt regs would feel themselves comfortable in NL100.

I think I was a little confusing in my initial questions. I don't want to know how many hands a given MTT is but rather its equivalent to cash games in terms on volume.

If I was to ask a cash game player how much volume they put in in a month and they told me 100k hands, I would know exactly how much that is given my background playing cash games.

However, if I asked a SnG/MTT grinder and they told me 1,000 games, I would have no idea if this was a little amount, a lot, or what. I have no frame of reference for this and am trying to get an idea.

So how I was trying to understand it was by comparing it to an amount of hands. Like an MTT grinder that plays ____ MTTs would be putting in an equivalent amount of volume has a cash game grinder who puts in ____ hands.

I think that may be a little clearer.

Thanks for the answers thus far!

A full time mtt grinder should be able to easily play between 750 - 2000 games a month. A full time 180 grinder should be able to play between 2000-5000 games a month.

If you are playing mostly ps and larger fields you can pretty regularly expect 1-3k game downswings and as high as 500-1000 ABI's. (pretty similar for 180's)

500-1000 ABI's? That has to be an error unless my understanding of ABI is incorrect.

ABI = avg buy-in. When you play a wide range of buy-ins, I.e: 5-109 while running a 15$ abi, it is very easy to have a large ABI swing.

For instance, I've had like 5 over 500 ABI's.

Hey now, You might experience 500ABI downswings but you shouldn't expect them while playing normal MTTs.

fyp

Pretty sure nearly every 20$ MTT-Reg would get murdered on NL100.


Depends on a lot of factors, like your buyinspread. The higher your spread the bigger sample you need. Because obviously when you run like **** in higher stakes you will run highly under ev.

In terms of hourlyrate, good midstakesregs make as much as Toptier NL100 Regs.

If you beat 25nl comfortably, i'd recommend playing MTTs and learning them ASAP. You would crush any mtt field except the high stuff (maybe the off peak or softer high stuff though you'd beat).

I'd say the average $20 mtt-er is equivalent to 10nl.

If you play primarily MTTs then 750+ is good volume. Adding 180s and such then 1000+ comfortably.

matter of definitions.

No. MTT regs with an ABI of 20$ who play up to the big 109 or even the million on sunday or whateveer would get murdered at NL100. Even a lot of higher stakes MTT regs wouldn't stand a chance.

at 0.5/1 ?

yes

yes, everyone is horrible at poker

People also are so delusional and underestimate variance so much in mtts

I played nl50 a bit recenly. It looked really soft to me.
I know some friends who play MTTs, but also had success at cash games up to NL200.

Do you emphasize on skill level or variance/required br?

Thanks for all the info thus far, has been very informative. Look forward to hearing different opinions.

Is this statement true? I had no idea that a 25nl winning reg would crush any mtt up to 33? I dont play cash much but this didnt sound right to me.

You serious about the guys who play 55, 109 and 215 dollar tournaments regular would get destroyed at 100nl? I figure they would be at least breakeven. Are the 100nl regulars really that better than the high stake mtt regs? 100NL is considered small stakes no limit whereas 109 and up is high stakes MTT. That makes it sound like the high stakes mtt regs are not good at poker if they can't even beat 100nl.


So these high stakes mtt guys are on par with 50NL? I can't imagine these guys getting destroyed at 100NL. Im not a cash or tourney player which is why im very surprised if this is true.

I was talking about the ABI. So people who play the big 109 as the top of their buy in range. I was obviously not talking about highstakes MTT regs. Playing one 109$ MTT a day or one 215$ MTT a week does not make you a highstakes reg.

And yes, with a little work on push botting most Nl25 regs would easily crush lowstakes MTTs (up to 33)

In my opinion (and id guess a lot of others), yes.

You have to take into account the whole field and not a one off. For instance there may be some very good mtt regs in a $33 mtt but comparable to the average player pool in that mtt, a winning 25nl cash game player would have a huge edge.

I'm by no means saying I'm a much better player than low stake mtt regs but it does amaze me how bad some are, especially post flop.

Interesting thread, 100nl-200nl makes you really sharp and even if you can breakeven at these stakes it will stand you in good stead for pretty much any mtt you could want to play with the exception of the ST etc.

Personally I find losing at cash harder to take than busting a tournament which invariably leads to tilt.

On the same note, it is hard for an MTT grinder who doesn't play cash to really know what 100K cash hands means, so it's a difficult question for sure.

If what you're asking is, "how many tournies do I have to play before I can start seeing meaningful stats and get a realistic feel for my winrate", I have seen people cite numbers anywhere from 5K - 10K games.

You certainly need a helluva lot more than 100K hands due to the shortstacked nature of tournies.

This.

With a couple hours of coaching/review with a good mtt reg and a couple hours of study on their own, I'd say anyone beating almost any stakes cash would crush most reg speed mtts.