Ok so history with me and villain, he doubled me up an orbit earlier KK>JJ after I 4 bet shoved pre. One thing to note about this hand was the board ran out QQ8JQ so he was potentially tilting hard.

Hes running 26/23 over a small sample so is aggro but definitely has a potential to spew.

Feel that the flop is a definite check considering the texture allows him to c/r a tonne of air and theres no way we can discount KQ from his range. Also it gives us the potential to get value from 1010-88 if the turn and river fall blanks. Anyone think different?

Turn is standard,

When he leads river.... how often if ever is he leading Ace x hands? Maybe AQ? WUG thoughts here?

PokerStars - $5+$0.50|2500/5000 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

Hero (BTN): 147,790.00
SB: 51,524.00
BB: 112,706.00
UTG: 137,680.00
UTG+1: 320,163.00
MP: 150,136.00
MP+1: 282,165.00
LP: 60,180.00
CO: 35,520.00

Hero posts ante 500.00, SB posts ante 500.00, BB posts ante 500.00, UTG posts ante 500.00, UTG+1 posts ante 500.00, MP posts ante 500.00, MP+1 posts ante 500.00, LP posts ante 500.00, CO posts ante 500.00, SB posts SB 2,500.00, BB posts BB 5,000.00

Pre Flop: (12000.00) Hero has K J

fold, fold, MP raises to 10,000.00, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 21,555.00, fold, fold, MP calls 11,555.00

Flop: (55110.00, 2 players) J Q 4
MP checks, Hero checks

Turn: (55110.00, 2 players) J
MP checks, Hero bets 23,250.00, MP calls 23,250.00

River: (101610.00, 2 players) A
MP bets 50,000.00, Hero ?

I don't like the play preflop because you are creating a huge pot late in the 5 dollar rebuy. You have a lot of chips and the average skill level deep in tbhis tournament is super low. So why put yourself into a big pot with kj suited? Making a smallish 3bet doesn't make sense to me.

That being said I like how you played the hand postflop. Would have bet more like 25700 on the turn bc of how draw heavy that board is. River seems like a standard call. If he has qq, or Kt you pretty much have to blame yourself for playing KJ this way pre. If he's got Aq or a bluff your play will have made you a lot of chips. Either way I think a fold preflop ought to be considered strongly.

This hand looks botched in a lot of ways. +1 on not 3-betting pre, especially such a small amount. And why not bet the flop? You're putting yourself in some tough spots later on without pushing him around and trying to take it down immediately. The fact that you got lucky and hit your turn is irrelevant. Think of how many scare cards would've come down and made the hand all the more difficult for you. Don't get too fancy on these flops, that's almost always a bad idea.

Anyway, as played, shove river. Very little beats you, and I think there's enough weaker hands that'll call, especially since his 50K bet committed him.

I 3bet pre a lot here too but it kind of sucks if you think he may 4bet shove light. If not I think its fine though I think closer to 2.5x would be more appropriate. Flop I do like checking behind second pair in in 3bet pots but I don't think this flop is the right texture to do so. I like b/f like 22 or 23k. Turn looks fine, ship river for reasons stated above.

Issue with 3 betting to 2.5x pre here is we look super polarized to value hands which while in this particular instant may be good, it sucks long term. When we want to include bluffs in our 3 betting range, which we absolutely do against an aggro opener who is going to be opening a wide range, its going to be super profitable to bluff because we can take down the pot pre so often.

We need to keep the sizing 2.1-2.2x so that we balance our range when we have value hands and make our bluffs cheaper.

People who say you want to bet the flop, do you not think this is a great spot for him to c/r air? How about tonnes of diamond combos that can be in his range.

The turn improving my hand is irrelevant and has nothing to do with luck lol. The turn is good because it doesn't include any additional outs for any of his feasible combos and essentially its a turn thats not great to barrel as a bluff so we should see a lot of calls from weaker hands.

Agreed that river is either a shove or a fold but I think we are overestimating the amount of times he is leading an ace vs c/c with an ace.

If you have a history of just making it 2.1-2.2x at this table then I think it's fine. If not I think it is just a little too small.

There aren't too many diamonds that he is calling pre and the ones that c/r us we don't stand so well against anyway (AdQd, KdQd, KdTd, Td9d). If he's c/r air, good for him. A lot of turns put you in an awkward spot like people have said so just bet.

river should practically never be a fold, the decision lies within call or shove.

What exactly does 3-betting 2.1-2.2x do other than bloat the pot?

lol

I think you misapply the word polarised a lot

why do you think there are tons of diamond combos' in his range?

when you say that river is either a shove or a fold is that because you think he folds better?

I'm serious. If your goal is to narrow his range, that's a bad idea considering your hand sucks and his range will most likely become hands that beat you. If it's to take control of the pot, that's not smart to do it against a known aggro spewtard who's unlikely to respect your bluffs.

Seriously, WTF are you doing?

Ok slow down. Firstly where are we getting this "known aggro spewtard" from? I said he was 26/23 over a small sample and based on those hands he was pretty aggressive. You really can't make assumptions that he won't respect my bluffs based on that. My goal is not to narrow his range, my goal is to get him to fold the weaker portion of his opening range which I think he is going to do a lot, regardless of sizing. As already specified, I am turning my hand into a bluff because of the amount of times he folds pre and when he does call, my hand flops well and doesn't in the least bit suck lol. I am comfortable I can take the pot away from him given a wide range of textures, this however, is not one of them.

I am using the word polarized in the context that using a sizing closer to 2.5x or more, it is more difficult for me to have bluffs and my range is weighted more towards value hands, polarized, weighted, meh.

I don't necessarily think there are tonnes of diamond combos in his range but we certainly cannot exclude hands like AJdd, AQdd, AKdd if he is being particularly trappy, 910dd all which he might feel merit a call pre despite being OOP.

what about you suggesting that the river is either a fold or a shove as I'm not sure there's ever a board where that is less appropriate

you did say

Quote:

Hes running 26/23 over a small sample so is aggro but definitely has a potential to spew.

I think the 3bet is fine, I don't think a larger bet weights your range to value hands to the point that anyone will notice though they're just not really thinking to this level. You are giving him 4/1 though

Flop I think the check is fine, he's not folding a Q he prob does check ship whatever diamonds are in his range though this is prob about 15% of his range and we don't much like getting check shipped on with 2nd pair. I still think you can bet it but I don't think it's compulsory.

Turn is obviously a bet but I think the statement that the river is a fold or a shove is absolutely nuts. It's got to be closer between a shove and a call than it is a fold.

For folding the river to be better than calling then you have to believe you aren't good 24% of the time.

For shoving the river to be better than calling you have to believe that he calls with worse > 50% of the time these are obviously mutually exclusive.

Shoving the river can only be better than calling if folding is better than calling if you expect him to fold better and you have 3 jacks, he isn't folding better ever

Sorry missed that part of your question. Folding may well be insane, but I would say his leading hands OTR are limited to AQ, AJ, J10, QJ, AK (maybe) and K10. While we get crushed by some of those, I think we can admit that whether we are beat or whether we win, he is not folding for his last 50k. Because I don't think he can ever lead fold we can occasionaly get value when the portion of his leading range is worse trips 2pairs and perhaps AK. So with that in mind, leaving myself with 8bb seems like a worse option than getting that last bit of value for when he does have a hand we beat.

If you feel his range is weighted more towards hands that beat us, then it feels more like a fold. If i had 150k OTR it would be a far easier call.

Not really sure how you can say that a 3bet of 2.5x is more bluffy than one of 2.1-2.2x. If anything, 2.1-2.2x will be seen as more bluffy and more polarized especially if it isn't your standard sizing.

Also, leaving yourself with 8bb when you are beat (not very often) sucks but is >>>>>>>>> folding. Just shove.

No, lol, I said 2.5x was LESS bluffy and more POLARIZED towards value hands. Which is exactly why I make 3 bets when deep 2.1-2.2x IP with my ENTIRE range because it looks like I can be BLUFFING so often.

While in this particular instance I am turning my hand into a bluff, I will use EXACTLY the same sizing when I have the nuts.

Regardless, I disagree. 2.5x is fairly standard here and the range he assigns you may be a more polarized one but that would be way more dependent on how you have been playing. 2.1-2.2x invites further action. If you expect him to call with his entire opening range then I am more ok with it but that is pretty unrealistic and you have not given us a reason to believe he will be doing so

just call the river, don't see how this is 'awkward' at all

Im a bit lost aswell as to what is awkard or super strange with this situation.

Villain will lead most hits ott, expect us to check back all hands with little/medium showdown strength and bet our air/semibluffs otf. We will never check back anything of value willing to stand 2 bets or more otf. Villain will lead any lost c/r possibilities ott making the A a draw blank river. Villain do have little to be scared of though ott seeing to my guesstimates but taking down xtra bets with value hands can aswell lose any xtra bets that could have been gained ott. Also lose the possibilty for 2 streets of value.

Calling's easy and we should prolly raise aswell. Whatever the line taken by villain seem bad, bad enough to make me tempted to raise. The gap between spewy and calling river with worse would often be looked at as quite big but the relations much closer. There are lots of hands villains bad enough to bet and call with

If you think he's tilting, I think minraising his turn lead is a viable line. Think about all the times you face this line from a donk and get uber pissed that they're so bad that they can 3bet pre check the flop and minraise a turn bet, that you just say **** IT and stuff it in on the turn.

As a standard it's obviously better to call the turn, but if you are calling the turn I think it's because you think he has a lot of bluffs and semi bluffs in his range and you are getting value by letting them bluff, so I don't think a river raise in this case makes sense, because he was either semibluffing and got there with KT, or is still bluffing and won't call a shove. I'd call.

He check, we bet. You misread

yep, sorry. would call river based on the less misguided half of my post

The only awkward spot was whether to call or shove the river given the fact that we have 8bb behind and he can lead worse of which he is never folding to a shove. So in game i shoved

you said earlier that it was a shove or fold