http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...d.php?t=171622

Hello everyone,

I'm finalizing my new "SNG Chop Calculator" and wanted to get some feedback before I launched it. First, here is what it looks like (example is for a 3-way chop at a $105 9-man tourney):



So here is how it works:
1. You download the calculator.
2. At any point in the tourney, you can click on "Get Chop Numbers" to see how a chop would be divided.
3. If you would like to proceed, click on "Request Chop".
4. If all the other remaining players have already agreed, your status will instantly show that the chop is successful.
5. If not all the other players have agreed, then the status will show "Waiting for Usernamex to agree". It will automatically update and show if they do eventually agree.
6. If they haven't agreed before the end of the hand, then you must request a new chop (only if you still want to chop) since the payment/chip numbers will have changed.
7. If chop is agreed upon, then the player can either play it out (for the new SNG Leaderboard points) or autofold out to save time - either way the calculator will show whom should pay whom and what $ amount.
8. If user does not transfer the money, then they will be prohibited from using the calculator and chopping until resolved. If the chop is successful and money is transferred, then users increment their "choprating" by 1 (that is the number following the usernames in the chop calculator). This will provide some layer of security and trust for users.


My feelings are that it is great for the users as well as the pokersite (I want to beta test on PokerStars). When players take stabs at moving up, the variance can be a quick killer. This will allow more players to take shots. Since it is as simple as clicking 2 buttons, it seems faster than using the chat box, will determine for sure if all players agreed during the same hand (so no confusion), will instantly calculate the numbers, provide some protection by the feedback system, etc.

Likewise, a lower variance will keep more fish in the pool. Typically, a pokersite with 100 players doesn't want 50 of them to double up their roll and 50 to go bust. They'd prefer if all players break even (minus the rake of course)! Now the pokersite should have more players not losing their rolls as well as more players taking shots at higher stakes.

So, any feedback, suggestions, or criticisms would be appreciated.

Cheers!
SNG Chop

I once played a $36 live STT and w/ 3 players left they wanted to chop. I've never lol'd so hard before in my life.

I think you'll have more luck with this on p5's.

On the 6x$119s when we get to ITM at lvl 3, I'd usually accept a chop. Because it's either that or watch my stack steadily decline as villian somehow bets 80% of the time, has the nuts any time I take a stand, and instafolds anytime I get a hand.

also having the CL if CL is a good player on the bbl try to take a chop will be a losing proposition as the CL has such a huge edge that goes beyond just their % of the chips in play

This is better than an ICM calculator... why? Seriously, just call it an ICM calculator that auto-fills payouts and stacks from a running tournament and watch the anti-bot people flip out.

Doesn't most of your edge come from end game decisions?

Will sites even let you chop stts?

Lol. Theres a guys house I play at occasionally and they basically expect a chop HU. I decline and they get annoyed/mad and it is the most ridiculous thing ever.

Looks like this is based on an honor system

Asking for an honor system in online poker is like asking for a legit response to anything in BBV4L

Why would anyone jeopardize their ChopRating™ by not sending?

Is there an offline SNGChop calculator that I can take to the Rio?

problem with chopping imo is their is maybe 7 or 8 regs that you can trust cuz you play them every day at any level/ everyone else that wants to chop, at least 1/3 times you get ****ed over

why would I want to chop when all of my profits come from 1st place?

I can attribute directly at least $1000 of real money to pwning chops. I'm basically a mid-limit chump. Discuss.

1) What is the formula for calculating such chops? ICM?

2) What's the method of paying for the software? Freeware? Shareware? Open Source?

3) I assume that the calculator scrapes the screen to get the numbers. I assume that the technique for banning "bad players" sends data to a central server associated with that player's poker screen name. Scraping + sending data to a central server = a huge security risk.

4) Step (4) above suggests that the software will communicate with other users somehow. How does it do this? What check is that there is no other data being sent?

5) What if someone at the table does not have the software? Is it going to spam the chat window advertising itself?

I agree. Anyone who is a +EV player shouldn't chop if they have a large chip lead, especially on the bubble. I think the tool will used more when the stacks are relatively close.

Real-time ICM calculators are legal (as of now). There is no "bot" action as it never clicks any buttons or makes any decisions for you.


It is a zero-sum game. If the game were HU, then both players couldn't use this argument. If one player is much better than the other, then that player most likely wouldn't want a chop. If the 2 players are spacegravy and bigjoe, it's a $1k tourney, blinds are 400/800, and they both have 6750 chips, wouldn't they think about a chop to cut down on variance since they are roughly equally matched?


Yes, but no site currently has a system set up to do it. Also, it appears that Steps SNGs do not allow chops.


Doesn't that in itself prove that their is a need, even if you personally don't want to chop?


Yes, I agree that is the problem. There are several options to combat this.
1. Use the honor system 100%. Isn't this how Ebay works? If you're wary of chopping because of this, then you could wait until they have proven that they've chopped in the past. Recall that if they don't complete a single chop, they are banned from the system. Likewise I could set something up where people cannot chop unless they've played a minimum of x tournaments (or show their # of tourneys next to their choprating #.
2. SNG Chop (aka me) could back/insure the chops. This would definitely require me to charge for the service (albeit <1% of the prize pool) or get advertising as the default rate should be somewhere in the 0-5% range I would think.


1A) Yes, ICM. I know this isn't perfect, but it seems to be the best and is what the sites use to chop large tourneys

2A) It will be free to start. If the userbase ever gets large enough, then I can start charging or get advertising.

3A) There's no screen scraping, but rather it reads the HH to get the chip amounts. Yes, it sends data to a central server. I suppose this could easily be seen as a security risk. Does anyone have any ideas about how to limit this? Isn't every single piece of software someone downloads have this same issue?

4A) Yes, it "talks" to other users via the central server. I'm not sure how to guarantee to the user that no other data is being sent (see #3 above). How do other pieces of software do this?

5A) If one of the players doesn't have the software, then a chop cannot take place (at least via the software). SNG Chop will not spam the chat window, although if one of the users wants a chop they are welcome to use the chat window to refer them to the download ;-)


Out of ~2,000 SNGs/hr, I would think there would be a minimal amount of interest. More importantly, I think that an 18-man or 45-man SNG would have more need/desire.


It uses a central server.


I'm glad I posted here to see what the general interest is to start. So far, it appears that I will not launch as the interest seems too small.


SUMMARY:
A) If you're a beginner/intermediate, I think some of them will want to chop just to guarantee them some money. What if their BR is about to go busto? Wouldn't they be interested in chopping to guarantee them $?

B) If you're a low/mid-level pro/reg, then I think you wouldn't use it unless there are nothing but regs left in the tourney. I think there are 2 reasons why these types of players don't move up stakes. First, the higher tourneys have tougher competition. Second, the variance is a killer. Now you could take stabs at the higher levels and cut down on your variance.

C) If you're a higher level pro/reg, then when you're left with nothing else but pros/regs at the table, wouldn't you want to cut down on variance and end the SNG immediately so as to start up the next one faster to improve your $/HR? Why does Hassan, who has probably the best numbers on SS, chop nearly every tourney when there are nothing but pros/regs left? Look at the best pros and their worst runs:

DDBeast: 7,500 game break even stretch with a max loss of ($20k)
Jorj95: 8,000 game break even stretch with a max loss of ($58k)
deut23-10: 9,000 game break even stretch with a max loss of ($21k)
Bigjor: 9,000 game break even stretch with a max loss of ($45k)
River Prayer: 16,000 game break even stretch with a max loss of ($75k)


There are definitely alot of players out there that are true "gamblers" and would never chop. SNG Chop will not be applicable to everyone. For others, I think there are many reasons why this tool would be useful (see all my replies above). How many users would be interested if it were integrated directly into the pokersite software? Then PStars/FTP/etc would automatically end the tourney and automatically pay the correct amount and scrap the transfers.

Once again, thank you for all your replies and suggestions thus far.
Cheers!
SNG Chop

"C) If you're a higher level pro/reg, then when you're left with nothing else but pros/regs at the table, wouldn't you want to cut down on variance and end the SNG immediately so as to start up the next one faster to improve your $/HR? Why does Hassan, who has probably the best numbers on SS, chop nearly every tourney when there are nothing but pros/regs left? Look at the best pros and their worst runs:

DDBeast: 7,500 game break even stretch with a max loss of ($20k)
Jorj95: 8,000 game break even stretch with a max loss of ($58k)
deut23-10: 9,000 game break even stretch with a max loss of ($21k)
Bigjor: 9,000 game break even stretch with a max loss of ($45k)
River Prayer: 16,000 game break even stretch with a max loss of ($75k)
"

If you are saying the reason Hassan hasn't had big sharkscope swings is because he chops, that's a pretty silly argument. Sharkscope has no idea who chops what, it just means he flips well.