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Basic question about ICM Basic question about ICM

11-13-2009 , 06:31 AM
As of late, I'm trying to study the ICM so as to improve my late game. Although I'm doing pretty okay, I'm really confused about some of the stuff that SNGWiz says.
For example, in this case I really don't get it why is it correct to be calling with any two cards. I mean.. my instincts are telling me that it is NOT a good idea if I have 23o in this situation to basically give up a quarter of my stack. Is there any reasonable explanation behind this? Sorry if it is really basic and all but I just don't get it.
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11-13-2009 , 06:46 AM
You're calling t332 into a pot of t832 = pot odds of 2.5 to 1 = call with ATC
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11-13-2009 , 06:50 AM
The effect of ICM is smallest on the chips at the top of your stack, so you can play closer to chip EV with those chips.

It's good to consider if a call can effect the future fold equity of your stack though, in this case you still have 7.5 BBs if you lose so it's not too bad.
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11-13-2009 , 06:57 AM
I'm not sure I understood the thing about the ICM, Chip EV and the top of my stack. I know the difference between ICM and chipEV but why would I consider using the chip ev method? what is the reason behind this and in which situations is it better to base my decision on chip EV calculations rather than ICM ? I'd really appreciate an answer to this one.

edit: okay, i'm an idiot. thought chip ev was chip equity mode. I guess I should read more theory. sorry : )

and about considering future fold equity... you mean would my stack be nearly as scary if I lose the pot, right? xD
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11-13-2009 , 07:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdobrev

and about considering future fold equity... you mean would my stack be nearly as scary if I lose the pot, right? xD
Yes, that's it...
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11-13-2009 , 07:08 AM
He's saying that you can afford to lose the the first 25% of your stack more than you can the second 25% and so on. When you start getting short, each chip is worth more because losing it loses you fold equity, and because once you're busted, you're busted. If the call you're facing isnt going to hurt you that much, you can start looking at in in terms of pot odds and chip EV.
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11-13-2009 , 07:34 AM
"Every chip you gain is worth less than one you lose." - you have probably heard someone say that to explain ICM.

Well this statement also implies that the 1st chip you lose is worth less than the 2nd chip you lose, and so on. This is why players talk about pot control near the bubble, if you keep the pot small you are playing with chips from the top of your stack which aren't worth as much. If you keep the pot small you pay less "ICM tax", on average less of your equity is distributed to other players at the table which aren't involved in the hand.

All the stuff above is a simple consequence of the math behind ICM and is unrelated to losing fold equity. Losing fold equity is a separate consideration which we have to factor in because of the blinds. If your stack becomes too small in comparison to the blinds, then you can no longer avoid all-in confrontations, and ICM is all about avoiding confrontations.

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdobrev
is it better to base my decision on chip EV calculations rather than ICM ? I'd really appreciate an answer to this one.

edit: okay, i'm an idiot. thought chip ev was chip equity mode. I guess I should read more theory. sorry : )
Just to be clear I was not talking about switching to chipEV mode in sng wiz. Just that chips off the top of your stack will approach their chip EV value as the size of your stack approaches infinity (sort of a math-ish way of explaining things, but hopefully you get what I mean).

Last edited by IFoldPktOnes; 11-13-2009 at 07:40 AM.
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11-13-2009 , 08:02 AM
starting to get complex, eh? : )

thanks for the answers, this is golden ^^
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