Ur telling me u dont want them to flat with a range that is decimated when we have aq in position? So much so that u want to raise larger to get folds? Wtf

I just said I didn't think the 2.5x was a mistake, not that it was better.

As I explained, it is not advantageous if the BB flats getting 4.5-1. Your hand is probably a lot better and you have position, but they can have almost anything, whereas they expect you to have high cards.

droolaments

about the hand call now gl

We aren't 200bbs deep where we are gonna make some huge mistake stacking off with tp...

this is a leak sir

In general, I think it is a lot better to minraise than 2.5x it with this stack and this stage.

I think I made the comment that with AQ it doesn't lose you as much as with JJ+ or a r/f to 2.5x it.

As to getting called by the BB when we have hands such as KJ+/AT+, all things being equal, we don't want it, because although are hands are strong we are not usually getting that much action when we hit and are ahead.

This is just so wrong .. are you implying that we only want action when we have worse that our top range or JJ+?

No, your r/c range is wider than JJ+. What I said was that the 2.5 loses more with JJ+, because it probably reduced some the number of 3-bets and flats you get. With AQ, it hurts you less to reduce loose 3-bets, although you still want them. However, it may cause some people to 3-bet instead of flat, which is very good for you. Also, if people fold instead of flatting that doesn't hurt you much if at all. Obviously, if people read the 2.5x as a r/c or a big ace, then it is bad for you.

Min pre and check back flop w/intention of calling most turn leads and betting small if checked to again ott.

OP, just 2x. your plan here should be to get SB/BB (especially SB) calling or raising, so shoving pre is just killing value and 2.5x is reducing the chance they play along with hands u dominate.

c-bet against fit/fold BB sounds mandatory and once you do, call it off getting 2-1.

Yeh, thinking about it, I agree that 2.5x with AQ is bad, because it reduces the chance you get 3-bet light.

As for r/fing 2.5x being terribad, that isn't so clear to me. If it reduces the chance you get called or 3-bet, that is good if you are stealing, and may be worth the extra .5xBB.

It all depends how people are playing, but if everyone thinks 2.5x is not a steal, then it is good as a steal.

I saw some training video where the guy raised 2.5xBB UTG with JJ and 16xBB. He said that was his standard size UTG as he had a tightish range and didn't want people flatting light. However, I thought it was not a good play to do that with such a strong hand and 16xBB.

About 2.5x vs 2x with AQ:

If BB folds we make 2625.

If BB calls a minraise with hands he'd fold to a 2.5x, the pot OTF will be 5625. This means him calling a minraise is better than him folding to a 2.5x if we expect to make over 82% (4625/5625) back from this pot.
Given that our equity vs those hands is 65-75% (and significantly higher if one would only count until the flop, which is the street where decisions will be made with such short stacks - i.e. we can make it difficult for villain to realize his equity when flop is unfavorable to him), that we have position and initiative, that we are never dominated while dominating a decent amount of hands ourselves, and that we potentially have a skill edge, I think our expected gain is surely higher than the gain from folding out those hands.

I agree that 2.5x with AQ is probably bad because it discourages light 3-bets.

As for defends, we are about 65% against the range he defends with light, not 65-75%. We have a skill edge, initiative, and a better hand, but he is getting huge immediate pot odds and our range is much more clearly defined than his. We are somewhat face up.

what

This is hilarious. Everything was said after the second page. But this here puts a smile into my face

I explained this over and over. Your edge of having the better hand isn't as much as you think. How often is he calling your cbet when an ace hits?

wut?

The player who defends in the BB is likely to put you on more or less what you have, whereas you have no idea what he has. Is this that hard to understand?

if he is capable of ranging you then he is not calling atc from the bb

i dont get your point....and the egde post flop is about ranging people and making +ev calls

Who said calling atc? When you miniraise, you are pricing him in to correctly call with a wide range getting like 4.5-1.

Even if you assume villain is bad, don't even donks tend to fold to cbets on A/K/Q high flops? If we assume you have a big skill advantage, then of course that makes it more advantageous to see a flop.

You are on a narrow range, roughly top 20%, but if the BB is playing reasonably correctly, his range is like top 60% minus top 10% weighted toward stuff like suited connectors and small pps. Plus he should expect you to have high cards, which you do.

really i lost the point .....
about what are we discussing?

I think Betgo is saying that hard decisions are hard to make and should be avoided

The fact this MTT seems to be a super KO has to be mentionned somewhere.
It makes flop an easier call, doesn't it?

Yes

Jam Pre

People are just starting to get into the 10-20 BB range and that is a good spot for you to ship it in pre flop because most people, regardless of stack, are only going to be calling a very small range. Scoop that $2625 from blinds and antes and put yourself in a better position for the next orbits.