This is my dilemma....

1) I shove I take away any resteals from worse hands that would just shove to my fold...but

2) If I open and get called my options are;
-check fold when I miss (horrible)
-c bet fold when I miss ( horrible)
-c bet call when I miss (horrible)
-check/check raise all in when I miss (horrible)
- bet when I hit and the fold like 90 percent of the time because its so ob i'm on AK

This is the other awful part of the equation....when you hit with this stack you rarely ever get paid because your hand is so polarized.

Shove about 2x the pot??? I would never do that with a made hand so I don't see how this is a viable option. If I had a pot sized bet left I like it...but if my stack was that small to begin with I would just have shoved it in pre so I wouldn't be in that spot.

This is another part of the equation....what should a villain could call with given my stack size and his?

Answer...basically nothing (AA..KK trying to in induce a squeeze or trap) and this is why I make this raise because with my stack and the stacks behind they should really either be folding or shipping

....yet they flat all the time (5x in two tourneys just last night)...the problem is that we play against lots of spew monkey ******s so I can't make many assumptions here

Yeah with a bigger stack I like this but the problem is that any c bet takes away my ability to resteal and feels really spewy.

raise/call absolutely....but the problem is when they flat your in an awful spot. If the only option of other player was to fold or reship raise/call would obv be alot better than shoving.

This is not even close to the same situation. With your 4-bet you are obv committed as if he calls you will have about a pot sized bet left post. Not even close to my situation when you are left oop with 2x the pot after the flop.

Deluded dude starts yet another account after previosly being hounded out/banned and challenges mement mori to a big money game cept he neglects to say how much for.

Mori accepts only for deluded dude to quit the site (again) and was last heard screeming how we're all idiots and something about 40% roi whatever that means.

Oh and there was a hand or something

Pretty good read afaik

oop this is even more ideal....you just jam any flop for a pot sized bet...I absolutely love that play.

in pos I think when it comes low and he makes the weak lead it is an easy shove but when he shoves into you it becomes very hairy.

If villain shoves into you for pot and you miss. You need 33 percent equity in the hand. You have to figure that if he is shoving he is not that strong because he would just check and let you put in in if he was. Therefore your A and K should be good most of the time if you hit giving you 24 percent if you are behind. If you factor in the villain doing this with missed hands AQ KQ at all (even very small percent of the time) then you still should call.

Bottom line...this play is actually better to make oop.

How do so many people advocate bet calling off on the flop here???

If he raises you are dead to maybe 6 outs almost every single time. I can't look back at the hh right now but even if there is a draw out. Its not that likely that it is part of the villains range (this deep even suited connectors and such can be eliminated)...so it is very unlikely that you are ahead at all.

I just really hate this but if so many players are advocating this please tell me why?

lol @ posting that pm after he talks about how he would never post a pm, would totally be a dick move if matt didn't consistently come off as such a douche but as it turns out... it's hilarious!

and I really hope that challenge happens.... one time!!!

again...please explain c/bet calling off here and how that is good

again....please explain

1. I think you have to shove
2. bet/call? I don't get it. Why not bet/fold? Why would you call the shove?

Yeah as played pre I can see check/fold or bet/fold as options...but bet/call I just don't get it at all. I would rather crai if I was looking to get it in.

You have "nut air" just shove pre less than 20 BBs

HOF PM.......... my favourite parts were

and followed by

thread delivers

Thread title is: "AK late in tourney 14-17bbs deep...what to do"

Said thread has 7 pages.

Wat?

I'll tell you what to do.

FYP

Change your settings sir

I laughed.

OK, I'll give it a shot.

Will do it in a few minutes, at a final table, and I need to focus.. I'm working on open folding and raise/folding AK with 14BB. Or check/folding the flop when I get called.

Wish I read this entire thread. Then I'd know what to do. Sigh.

I said it was different the point I am trying to make is that opening AK for a standard raise with 14-17BB's and then failing to c-bet and get it in is a mistake. Play it like it's the nuts which on most flops post with 17bb's it absolutely is

oh and the reason bet call is better than either bet fold or check fold is that when you bet and fold you generally have the odds to call to hit your 6 outer when behind and when you factor in the hands that will shove that you are actually ahead of that really sucks and check fold means you are regularly folding the best hand which is a nightmare

hammer these hands will be soooooooooo much easier to play if you can put a flatting range on your opponent...the wider he flats pf the more often he will miss and your hand is good, the tighter he flats the more often he has a hand...the great thing about AK is that it is never so far behind with two overs that if you bet/call the flop you will not lose out that much over time

please put people on ranges pf...take a stab at the types of hands they like to flat IP with, some people never do it without a made hand...some people never do it with a made hand...that is part of the game and where it is won and lost

you are betting solely on the amount of times this flop missed villain with his calling range...it's gambling...play the %'s...if he is always flatting with a made hand and never flatting a draw...c/f...if he is never flatting a made hand and only flatting draws, bet...you have to put all the pieces of the puzzle together and it starts with pf flatting ranges

another thing is how often villain bets air when checked to...people have tendencies you have to watch the action or at least have PT3 to watch it for you

also...if you want to be really good at poker you should be able to calculate your odds before you bet..as dereds said, if you bet now and get shoved on you will have odds to hit the 6 outer so you should be aware of that before you bet and size it accordingly...if you don't want to be committed before you bet then bet less, if you do bet more

Again its not even close to the same situation. You 4bet....I opened and got called with 2x the pot behind both of our stacks out of position. Its about as similar as black and white.