I would just shove pre-flop

Surely an A72 flop would be better since an A is much less likely to hit villains flatting range than a J, since any reasonable player is shoving at least AK/AQ, possibly even AJ/AT/A9 as well, where are they are much less likely to be reshoving JK/JQ/JT etc...

no, ur equity is just too dead when ur behind +1 regret

This^
It makes so much sense.

I don't see how even raising 2.5x makes us have pot odds to call a shove, much less a min raise. I r/f here all day.

I hate these pro hands because I always think this:

and rarely find much in the discussion this side of wishful thinking, so I rarely change my mind.

Michty's posts are good but I doubt you make anything fold on the turn that didn't fold on the flop so you're hoping he has a draw a lot.

No it doesn't.

He is advocating raising for information, which will almost commit villain.
We already determined his range is much stronger than us and in our best case he has a draw which we are still flipping against.
Also not all randoms play as clear according to Michty's mentioned actions.
All in all, raising flop is spew, spew and nothing but spew.

raising for information sucks. period.

I vehemently disagree that it's spew, as his donk bet is likely indicative of a weak hand and we win the pot a high % of the time by putting in a raise.

Filter your database for this type of donk bets where it is TP weak kicker or 2nd pair and then report back in here. It's spew and I'm sticking to that.

I don't hate the flop raise, but make it smaller, and once he flats, jamming the turn is pure spew. Still prefer just folding the flop though.

I don't agree with this either. It's an overcard that might scare opponent into folding, plus it gives us more equity in the actual hand as we went from 6 outs to 10. And of course, that's assuming we're behind -- We could actually have the best hand.

NJD, assuming we raised flop, what's your plan for turn/river? Check turn/fold river?

???? I think that's being extremely optimistic once he calls the flop. I mean you're basically saying that he could still have a FD, but a FD would check-shove that flop or just get it in with you on the flop a large % of the time. No other worse hands exist imo.

He has 4bbs left after investing 6, they just never fold the turn here after calling the flop. And if he very rarely has worse and we have no FE, then we're just spewing money to his 9x type hands.

My plan for turn and river if I raise flop is generally to check-back turn, and if we hit a K or Q on the river and get checked to I might bet really small for a bit of thin value.

Seriously Aaron? 6x4=24 >> 10x2=20. imho.

Also do not raise flop because we might actually have the best hand, we raise for value and not for information and you're not raising for value here.
If you're going to bluffraise don't do it against players who will generally station it up and do it with nice backdoor equity where hitting your backdoor would not kill your action. This is one of the worst hands in combination with the deck to get funky with.

we raise the flop because you exploit a tendency of a fish to either fold or to call and check the turn almost always. instead of looking to another turnbet about 60-75% of the time.

why do ppl always want to put their action in tiny little boxes to say i rasie for info (what)/bluff/valueeee zzzzzzz

Fish do not generally fold here and they generally also do not lead with worse than a FD, let alone fold to small raises.

And you can zzzzz all you want, but the described action here was mentioned as for getting information on what type of hand the villain has, and that is terrible. Especially with a 10BB stack.
There is no room for fancy play against a fish when you have a 10BB stack.
Is that really so difficult to understand?

Also, there is no need or room to exploit his tendency, since has has the best hand nearly always, if he has a FD we're still only flipping.
You get information that he has something by his donk, and that is our exit cue, since we do not have anything. It's as simple as that.
He is too short to get him too fold, plus we will realise he will get raised a percentage of the time.
Also you do not need to face another 60% turnbet (actually seems like a high estimate, since mindonkers generally also donk small on the turn), because you should fold the flop.. We have a very good stack size and there is no need to spew it away because you did not like someone mindonking a stronger range into you.

Funny thing about this hand is that if it was not Aaron posting it, but some random guy, everyone would've basically +1-ed my first post...morans.

If it was Deurdy posting this hand, the responses would have been, "yeah standard" +1, +2...........;o) I'm actually surprised at you not liking the spew!

Yeah, but I take these lines to preserve my nickname "DerbyMcSpewy"..

I thought you liked to check back a lot of flops durrrr-styleeeee.

It's kinda difficult to check back the flop here after a donklead..

cant you just shove pre? r/f to 8bb-10bb stacks seems kinda bad..

guessing this is 9-18man, and i play 6max tho..

i didnt say i like to raise his bet perse. has to be smaller if you do it but no i dont really like it moreso on a Jxx board because our equity is never crushed like it can be here.

just stating that i hate people put a reason to raise etc in such a 'small box'

Well Aaron has already said he didn't play this hand.

Since I play non-turbos villains tend to play a little differently but also I have faced a lot more donk bets. I have actually filtered my database and studied donk bets several times and am pretty confident in my range assessment (especially for a min donk) which was:

I agree raising for information is wrong but I am actually not advocating raising for information. When we raise here villain responds in 3 ways: fold, call or raise. What I am saying is that when villain responds with 2 of the 3 methods (call or fold) it makes our raise is +EV even when villain is calling because we can narrow the range of the villain and bet the turn too - this is what I meant when I said "villain will tell you what his hand is in response to your bet". What I am saying is "villain will tell you what his hand is in response to your bet and because their range to ch/call is so weak we can profitably double barrel". In this sense it is not a raise for information but a raise which is either directly +EV (when they fold X% amount) or indirectly +EV (when they call Y% amount and ch/fold to our turn bet Z% of times).

Double barrel bluffing with effective stacks of under 10bbs is pretty lol though. If he calls flop he never ever ever folds turn (and probably nor should he).