can someone shed some light on this nash equilibrium range? 6 max DONs are truly messed up, i do not comprehend them, i do not think a lot of people do though. here's the hand i was analyzing: 100/200/25 level
utg 1783, button 2048, sb 2067, bb 3102. payouts obv: 33.33333% for 1-3

I was button but look at the equilibrium suggested push range for utg, suggested any 2. this is my first question, why on earth is any two suggested??? I guess in 6 max dons equilibrium ranges are strayed away from way more than other formats, from my observations, ppl just do not understand them, myself included. So, every person in this 4 handed hand, is suggested to shove any 2 when folded to, why? i ran this hand through ICMizer and the equilibrium suggested were identical, so this is no mistake on the screenshot.




and then u can note the UBER tight calling ranges, i mean vs a suggested any two from utg shove, bb is only calling 77+, AJs+, Ako. i understand we are to call tight here in every spot, but to me this almost seems way to tight vs an any two, it pisses me off tbh to know that im supposed to fold AQs to an any two shove from utg, cant even try to bust him with HUGE cEv gains, but whatevs, i am trying to soak this in.

i need someone to embed some of this in my brain because i am pry making big mistakes at times, but others are to. In game i button shoved, never any two though, not even close, because again from observation, ppl do not understand just how tight they are supposed to be calling. I was snapped off by the SB (him AJ off), fish call, and one of the supposed good regs, cant sharkscope on said site so i do not know his track record. But again, it just comes down to these messed up DONs and ppl not fully understanding them, but vs my button push range it was a horrendous call seeing he was not supposed to call if I shoved any two from button, and I was far from any 2. he str8 up lit money on fire with this call (i put myself in his shoes, vs what i think he would perceive my range to be and it was like a -4.8% call)

without seeing results or the equilibrium data, put yourself in the SB, what would u call with here in a vacuum vs a button push? as a hypothetical, lets say absolutely zero reads on the button shover, we are estimating our best equilibrium call/fold. my sng background is more traditional stuff like 65/35 and 50/30/20, im getting better at these but as stated, i think ppl just suck at them in general. lastly, i should pry be uber tight pushing from the B here vs almost all villains because people are simply calling way to wide(even though wide here looks super tight on paper, in regards to calling ranges behind)

THESE DONS BROS

the minute that anyone loosens up from equilibrium, shoving atc becomes hugely -EV, and likely is a giant mistakes in any games at any stakes.

My buddies n I play a lot of dons..
In a don...guys should be super tight here..
Bb calling 77 is a mistake with these stacks IMO
As far as calling here .. .. Previous player observations come into play.
Since there is nothing gained (as in traditional 9man sng) in calling and chipping up, u don't wanna make as many of those calls.

U also need to take into consideration... Many ppl r bad, and may call u too loose.. But that's where a lot of profit comes from

As far as shoving atc.. This also depends on opponents... Sometimes u can.. Other times u need to tighten up jam range a lil

Gl

*I'm mostly posting for myself to learn since I play a lot of DoN's.

Maybe I'm stating the obvious but the ATC push is because no one should be calling you without a very strong hand due to the flat payout. It's best to just stay alive. So we can accumulate by shoving light. Problem is people don't shove that light or call that tight. So we should shove tighter against our opponents(?).... and since they shove tighter, we should also tighten our calling range, right?

To answer one of your questions, I would call from the blinds with something like TT-JJ+ or AK, maybe AQs. I might throw in AQ and 99 or even 88 if I thought they were really shoving light.

In the real world how tight I play is very opponent dependent. I play against many of the same people. In this spot, I would minraise 70 or 80% (so they know I still have a fold button) against the nits who don't defend to keep my stack alive. Usually there are 1 or 2 idiots who will clash it out with A8 and 44 so I just wait for that. I play at micros though, so that happens a lot. And maybe that's not a good strategy. I don't know, it seems to work OK for me. If anything, I feel I don't play tight enough when I'm ahead.

Sorry, wouldn't AQs fall in that range? you mean AQo? I feel you though... I would call AQ very happily if I thought they were literally shoving any two.

On the bubble of a Don a majority of profit comes from 2 players playing all in and the pot not involving you. I would prefer this to having a shove called to loose.



Op you need to consider your opponents to be able to appropriately apply icm. Poker is much more fluid than icm.

As far as shoving atc.. This also depends on opponents... Sometimes u can when players are playing according to icm or even tighter.
Other times u need to tighten up your jam range. If you know there is a player who will call wider than icm better to allow him to get involved with another player. Also important is how your opponents will view you jamming every hand. Many will open up there calling range after seeing push utg several times.

From the small blind with a stack that big with three other players I'm winning this tournament about 75% of the time. With no reads I need to know I'm winning the hand more than 75% to call a button shove. Fold all unpaired cards fold all paired cards KK and below. Then again if you have any read it is different.

To elaborate further, in the real world people call way too wide here. This causes everyone to adjust and shove too tight. This causes everyone to tighten up the calling range. This causes people to shove wider. This causes people to loosen the calling range. This goes on and on forever.

Like I said in the last post in a vacuum I'm calling with AA only and if there is a remote chance at the big blind calling I'm considering folding that as well. In a vacuum I'm assuming most people know what they are doing. Since that is never the case I'm not feeling as comfortable shoving in one of the upcoming hands. Therefore I would not mind ending the tournament now if I have a hand that is likely to dominate. Therefore my "tight" range against opponents are going to be to call KK+ and fold everything else. My "loose" range will be 99+ AQ+. My loose range is rarely used. If my opponents are tight I'm using my tight range. If my opponents are loose, shoving often and calling often, I'm probably going to fold into the money. If nobody is calling shoves then I'm probably going back to my tight range and shoving one of the next few hands to preserve my stack. I'll use the loose range if I think some regs are playing each other soft and me hard which happens from time to time. I'll also use my loose range if I think an opponent is on tilt. Remember the worst case scenario here is to be in a spot where we are flipping for stacks. If you have AKs you do not want to be calling against 22. If you have JJ you do not want to be calling against KQ. Use the loose range very sparingly.

Great post. Really demonstrates just how much a calling range will vary based on opponents play and how they view you.

I'm a 6max DON specialist, nothing there seems too out of line. It's surprising but that's how it its.

First off, I'm seeing UTG equilibrium at 45% which makes a lot more sense given that BB can call him off with something like 62% equity and print ca$h. ATC is even going to be sub optimal for him if BTN and SB over fold a bit.

Second, folding KK in the SB to a BTN shove is burning money. You can only do that if there's 2 giant idiots at your table that are going to collide most of the time when you fold (AKA you think your actual chances of winning far exceed what would be expected against equally skilled opponents). I understand where you're coming from though, you can crush micro stakes DONs by making stupid folds like that because a lot of the times SB and BB will get it in like 20% of the time or something insane like that. This strategy will severely hinder you in higher stakes games though.

When you're playing with multiple fish you want to be way tighter than nash in most spots because they call too much. For example, there's players who could be SB and BB in this hand that I would be shoving something like 15% from my BTN. This is a super rare circumstance. There's also players in the SB and BB who win money in these games who I'm fist pump shoving 32s (WOW my hand is suited!!). Most players don't fold AK so shoving ATC from the BTN isn't great, but some guys are bad enough to fold KK in the SB so obv we shove ATC on them and pray they're always on our left. BVB is like atc vs almost everyone though. He would have to call so wide for it to be sub optimal.

One other thing I'll mention about this "ridiculous" call by SB is that if he thinks you view the blinds as thinking players, therefore shoving near nash, and he views BB and CO as people who are potentially going to call off his steals with very wide ranges then he needs to open his range considerably. He's actually taking a -2.5 edge here vs 3 players who he may assume is playing nash, but he may be in a spot where he views his equity as significantly lower than nash thinks it is due to a potential lack of steal spots in future orbits because of him realizing where his opponents will stray from equilibrium. Also, his call is +ev in a vacuum if he thinks BB over calls 90%. As BB and CO loosen up vs his steals and BB's over call range loosens up there are circumstances that could arise that make his call +ev vs these players even though it seems disastrous on the surface. Was he thinking this way? Probably a little, but he was probably just thinking that AJ is a great hand and you're super wide, in which case we are printing tons of money by over folding in relation to nash because he calls everyone else off too wide as well.

thanks for the feedback guys, i will re read all these posts in depth and try to pick some brains, and try to pick out the vital pieces. i was looking at another hand, using 3 different programs, sngsolver, icmizer, and holdemresources calculator. check out these equilibrium ranges, my head wants to explode on the differences. maybe i should quit looking at them and try to take the best route for cashing myself because this **** is cray. this particular hand I was BB facing a button shove, what's our calling range vs a competent opponent? particular opponent seems to mix $15s and $30s and his hud numbers at each level of the sng seem pretty good

I cant really read your screenshot clearly but it appears as though you have a9o in the bb vs a button shove. The SB has 1100 chips and you have 1600? If I'm reading that correctly its a snap fold. Button has you crushed with a descent ace. Button is ahead with any pair. The SB will be blinded out way before you and will be required to push a marginal hand. Unless you have some phenomenal read that the button is shoving ace rag wait for a better spot. Remember you are trying to avoid confrontations in these as much as possible. Don't think in terms of EV or cEV think of them in terms of time EV. You want stay in the tournament for as long as you can.

I've read a lot of ridiculous things on this forum but this has to be one of the worst pieces of advice ever.

a9 off wasnt even my hand, qq was. anyway, i have had enough dons, i dont even think i should care learning them because they are just gonna F up my natural 6 man and 9 man game. i would love to continue grinding the snc promo but pry wont be if its dons, back to mtts - lets play to win not get top 3, i really hate every don player i just played this week, i reg their games they dont come near mine. stuntin in my rarest pair, homie i aint neva scared

I estimate he has about an 75%-80% chance at winning this don if he folds. To call with a positive ev but not with a dominating hand here would be a mistake.

Like I said your screen shot wasnt clear. It looks like you put a9 in sng solver but I cant see it clearly. With QQ its a close play either way. First you have to determine the percent of time you will win this Don by folding. Then see if you have the equity call. With the SB having less chips and only 4 people left I would put your percentage to win at 75-80. If your up against Ax Kx I would want to fold. Against a smaller pair or unpaired cards below Q I would want to call. This would be a read dependent close spot IMO. If the other 3 players seem solid I'd call. If the next few hands were to consist of the SB pushing and everyone folding you'd be the short stack in a few hands. Then you would be forced to push in a marginal spot. If your read tells you that is where you'll be in a few hands you should call. If your read says someone will call the SB's push or the SB isn't smart enough to push you should fold. Clear as mud?

Ok but as long as you realize you're giving yourself way more equity than nash thinks you have in this game state which is pretty hard to determine readless.

Very True, good point this is a difficult stat to determine readless.

I dont have nash what does it say your equity is in this state?

Another point to consider is if you are playing a lot of these you may want to call slightly light here for balance. If a good reg picks up on the fact your only calling1% they will start shoving atc.

Dons r deff a grind.. But fairly low variance... But at least they run in USA , even nice stakes..

That being said.. They aren't for everyone

Gl

Program looks at it as 3 people cash. 4 left with reasonably close stacks. It sees you cashing 75%. How often are you > 75% after someone shoves?? So calling ranges are almost nothing so shoving range Is ATC. As mentioned no. They don't play close to that. So what do we do to pick up equity here? Why are dons profitable....